Martha Stewart "Guilty"

[RussM]

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[Biggles]

Once again, our corrupt legal/judicial system marches on...

Nothing like being found "guilty" for the "crime" of proclaiming one's innocence; of being found "guilty" of the consequences of an immoral and unconstitutional law the violation of which one _was not even charged_ (insider trading); of having too high a profile so a bunch of scumbags can advance their own shoddy careers and send a "message" to less powerful schmucks.

Good grief.

Russ Madden

In the criminal justice system, factual guilt or innocence are essentially irrelevant to the outcome of trials. Law is nothing approaching a science (in fact "political science" is an oxymoron). People who think being "innocent" will keep them out of jail are only deluding themselves. Why am I so cynical (actually realistic)? Because I've spent 25 years in the CJ system.

[Tim Hatch]

Once again, our corrupt legal/judicial system marches on...

Nothing like being found "guilty" for the "crime" of proclaiming one's innocence; of being found "guilty" of the consequences of an immoral and unconstitutional law the violation of which one _was not even charged_ (insider trading); of having too high a profile so a bunch of scumbags can advance their own shoddy careers and send a "message" to less powerful schmucks.

Good grief.

Russ Madden

I, for one, am glad the queen of kmart is ending up in the pokey. Her decorated cell will be such an inspiration to other prisoners.

[Ken Valentine]

In the criminal justice system, factual guilt or innocence are essentially irrelevant to the outcome of trials.



In my observation, proceedure is all important, guilt or innocence hardly enter into the equation.




Law is nothing approaching a science (in fact "political science" is an oxymoron).



Agreed!
Ethics is the philosophy of Morality. Metaphysics is the philosophy of Reality. Epistemology is the philosophy of Knowledge. Politics, in its original meaning, is the philosophy of Government -- and a Science of a Philosophy is a contradiction in terms.




People who think being "innocent" will keep them out of jail are only deluding themselves. Why am I so cynical (actually realistic)? Because I've spent 25 years in the CJ system.




"C" system Biggles, there is no "J" in it.




"The men the American people admire most extravagently are the most daring liars; the people they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth." H. L. Mencken

Ken - still trying to figure out how to use this new site - V.

[jimbow8]

Ken - still trying to figure out how to use this new site - V.

If you need help, just ask (post) somebody.

I realized how stupid that was right after I thought it. :D

Seriously, though, just ask.

Jimbo

[Lisa]

Ken, glad to see you made it back! I was afeared you'd been scared off by the new board.

As for Martha, I am sure she will find excellent new decorative uses for the prison-issue toilet paper. :D But seriously, I doubt she will see much if any jail time from this. They already cleared her of the most serious charge last week.

Lisa

[Ken Valentine]

Ken, glad to see you made it back! I was afeared you'd been scared off by the new board.

I have to admit, as new to computers as I am, this site is rather intimidating. It's very complex, and I fear it will take time which I just don't have to spare.

I haven't the foggiest idea how to fill out my "Bio," and as for an "avatar," fuggeddaboudit. (For the nonce -- perhaps several nonces, I would like to install the view I most commonly get of my cat "Pixel." It's the reason she got her nickname . . . "Fuzzbutt." It looks rather like this: ! )


As for Martha, I am sure she will find excellent new decorative uses for the prison-issue toilet paper. :D But seriously, I doubt she will see much if any jail time from this. They already cleared her of the most serious charge last week.

Lisa

If there were any "justice" in the so-called justice "system," she wouldn't have been charged with anything in the first place, much less convicted.

The problem -- as with virtually all government agencies -- is that they rely for their funding on quantity of arrests and convictions, rather than on quality.

In this, as in most cases, the real criminal is the government.

Ken V.

[Ken Valentine]

I, for one, am glad the queen of kmart is ending up in the pokey. Her decorated cell will be such an inspiration to other prisoners.


When your turn comes -- and it will, sooner or later -- that dripping sound you do not hear will be the bleeding of my heart.

Most people believe that their leaders are just and fair even in the face of contrary evidence. Perhaps this is because once a man acknowledges that the government he lives under is corrupt and cares nothing for justice or fairness, that man also has to decide what he will do about it.

Ken V.

[Tim Hatch]

When your turn comes -- and it will, sooner or later -- that dripping sound you do not hear will be the bleeding of my heart.

Most people believe that their leaders are just and fair even in the face of contrary evidence. Perhaps this is because once a man acknowledges that the government he lives under is corrupt and cares nothing for justice or fairness, that man also has to decide what he will do about it.

Ken V.

I think Martha was the pinata for her own and others' guilty "insider" tradings. An occurrence that is so common among the elite and connected. Though common, it only hurts the average stock holder. Maybe the "elite" will think twice while lunching together in the Hamptons and discussing their companys future in their close knit circles.

[Margery Lurkens]

Personally, I think that even trying Martha Stewart was a travesty. As mentioned she was was convicted of a felony for obstructing justice for a crime, the charges of which were later dropped. Seems like she is being convicted for being tougher and smarter than the male executives she once worked under. I mean, would anyone make a big deal out of some male exec. carrying a 5,000 dollar briefcase? Anyway Lisa, little jail time is relative. She is guaranteed a sentence of at least 12 months, and will most likely be senteced to between 12 and 17 months. This is due to mandated uniform sentencing guidelines. The judge has no ability to give her less for her "crimes."

[Ken Valentine]

I think Martha was the pinata for her own and others' guilty "insider" tradings. An occurrence that is so common among the elite and connected. Though common, it only hurts the average stock holder. Maybe the "elite" will think twice while lunching together in the Hamptons and discussing their companys future in their close knit circles.


"Insider trading" is a manufactured "crime" -- Malum Prohibitum -- and a pretty vague "crime" at that.

Back in the early eighties, I worked for a Corporation, and bought a few shares of their stock. The management changed. The new manager began to institute some absolutely idiotic policies. I saw the handwriting on the wall. (or was that, "hand, writing on the wall?" interesting how a simple space can change the entire meaning of a phrase.) I not only sold my shares, I quit the Company and found a job elswhere.

Perhaps I should be in prison as well.

What would you do if you learned -- from whatever source -- that your investment is going sour? Bang your head against the wall? Gnaw on your moustache? Or sell your investment?

"The only power any government has, is the power to crack down on criminals. When there aren't enough criminals, you make them. You declare so many things to be crimes that it becomes impossible to live without breaking laws." Ayn Rand

"When you give government the power to interfere in somebody else's life, you automatically give it the power to interfere in your life." Ken V.

[Susan]

"Insider trading" is a manufactured "crime" -- Malum Prohibitum -- and a pretty vague "crime" at that.

You see, Ken! This is why we need you on this board. You are intelligent and insightful. Don't let this new format intimidate you. Lisa and I are happy to help you out with every step. E-mail me, call me, or IM me. I'll do whatever I can to help you through this transition and keep you on the RJ board.

If you stop posting, I'll go on strike! :(

Susan

[Lisa]

If you stop posting, I'll go on strike! :(


Me too. And that would be bad, since there would be no one around to plan next year's GU. You wouldn't want to be responsible for that, would you Ken? ;-)

Lisa

[Tim Hatch]

"Insider trading" is a manufactured "crime" -- Malum Prohibitum -- and a pretty vague "crime" at that.

Back in the early eighties, I worked for a Corporation, and bought a few shares of their stock. The management changed. The new manager began to institute some absolutely idiotic policies. I saw the handwriting on the wall. (or was that, "hand, writing on the wall?" interesting how a simple space can change the entire meaning of a phrase.) I not only sold my shares, I quit the Company and found a job elswhere.

Perhaps I should be in prison as well.

What would you do if you learned -- from whatever source -- that your investment is going sour? Bang your head against the wall? Gnaw on your moustache? Or sell your investment?

"The only power any government has, is the power to crack down on criminals. When there aren't enough criminals, you make them. You declare so many things to be crimes that it becomes impossible to live without breaking laws." Ayn Rand

"When you give government the power to interfere in somebody else's life, you automatically give it the power to interfere in your life." Ken V.


I agree that it is a vague crime. Many people like to see the elite fall - it's an unfortunate part of human nature. I'm not approaching it that way. If there was no "crime" why would she attempt to cover up details?

I don't see the correlation between your personal experience viewing new management instituting dumb policies, and Martha being made aware that the FDA isn't approving a drug that was to be a companies cash cow. You were on the outside, using your intelligence to determine your companys future. Martha, in one way or another, had knowledge through her broker, that Imclone was a goner.

I don't think you should be in prison, but of course I don't know you ;) . If I keep arguing my points with you, do you promise to master the new board? :D

[jimbow8]

Idealogically it is easy to say "Why would someone lie if they had nothing to hide." But I don't think that is realistic. Panic, defense mechanism, ignorance, etc. are all reasons that people lie that don't necessarily mean they are guilty.

BTW, add me to the list that will help Ken figure out this board in any way possible and boycott if he gives up and leaves the board. :)

[Ken Valentine]

You see, Ken! This is why we need you on this board. You are intelligent and insightful. Don't let this new format intimidate you. Lisa and I are happy to help you out with every step. E-mail me, call me, or IM me. I'll do whatever I can to help you through this transition and keep you on the RJ board.

If you stop posting, I'll go on strike! :(

Susan


Thank you, Susan. I appreciate the thought.
Right now it's difficult to find the time, and with so many things to deal with, it's also getting difficult to concentrate.

This is a form of recreation for me, and it must take a back seat to responsibilities -- work before play.

Ken V.

P.S. What does IM mean?

[Ken Valentine]

Me too. And that would be bad, since there would be no one around to plan next year's GU. You wouldn't want to be responsible for that, would you Ken? ;-)

Lisa

Thank you too, Lisa. I'll do what I can.

Ken V.

"First they came for the verbs, and I said nothing because verbing weirds language. Then they arrival for the nouns, and I speech nothing because I no verbs." Peter Ellis

[Ken Valentine]

I agree that it is a vague crime. Many people like to see the elite fall - it's an unfortunate part of human nature. I'm not approaching it that way. If there was no "crime" why would she attempt to cover up details?


Perhaps because the gummymint makes up crimes out of thin air. It is nearly impossible today to know ahead of time whether your actions are, or are not, criminal.
In a free society, laws are relatively few . . . and easily understood. The more tyrannical a government becomes, the more numerous, the more complex, the more vague, incomprehensible, and contradictory the laws. It has reached a point in this country today where the laws are SO numerous, SO complex, that legal professionals must specialize. And as I understand it, there are about SIXTY different specialities of law . . . and yet the lay citizen is told, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse."

WHAT RUBBISH!

As far as covering up details is concerned; that's what the government claims.

If you make a policy of believing that everything the government says is a bare-faced, flat out lie, you will be right far more often than you will be wrong.


I don't see the correlation between your personal experience viewing new management instituting dumb policies, and Martha being made aware that the FDA isn't approving a drug that was to be a companies cash cow. You were on the outside, using your intelligence to determine your companys future. Martha, in one way or another, had knowledge through her broker, that Imclone was a goner.

You can bet your first-born that if they wanted too, the government would find a correlation -- I sold my stock because I had "inside knowledge." Knowledge that you wouldn't have. And if I told you, and you sold your stock because of it, you would be guilty of the same "crime" that Martha Stuart has been convicted of.



I don't think you should be in prison, but of course I don't know you ;) . If I keep arguing my points with you, do you promise to master the new board? :D

You might not want to know me either. :D

I'll do what I can . . . no promises.

Ken V.

"With a heavy dose of fear and violence, and a lot of money for projects, I think we can convince these people that we are here to help them." Lt. Col. Nathan Sassman USA -- on the Iraq occupation.

[Jay #1]

Out of all the crimes in the world, getting convicted of having advance knowledge in order to make money seems silly to me. There is, after all, murder, and worse crimes.

[Ken Valentine]

Out of all the crimes in the world, getting convicted of having advance knowledge in order to make money seems silly to me. There is, after all, murder, and worse crimes.

Well, you've got to remember that this is government you're dealing with. And although I have never heard of government workers actually being laid-off their jobs, they do feel obligated to grab a headline now and then in order to rationalize their budget . . . and hopefully get a bigger one next year. :rolleyes:

Ken V.

Everything I know, I learned by killing smart people and eating their brains.

[Keith the Elder]

Out of all the crimes in the world, getting convicted of having advance knowledge in order to make money seems silly to me. There is, after all, murder, and worse crimes.


If you bought Martha's shares that day she sold and it went down the tubes, you would probably feel cheated, don'tcha think?

[Ken Valentine]

If you bought Martha's shares that day she sold and it went down the tubes, you would probably feel cheated, don'tcha think?

Maybe it's just me, but I figure that if somebody is selling their stock, it's probably because they don't want it any more.
It would be in my best interest to find out why. It would also be in my best interest not to invest money I can't afford to lose.
So, if somebody thinks they have been "cheated" because they made a bad investment, they had better stay out of the market.

Some stocks go up, some go down. Why else do wise investors take care to have broad portfolio?

Ken V.

[Biggles]

Maybe it's just me, but I figure that if somebody is selling their stock, it's probably because they don't want it any more.
It would be in my best interest to find out why. It would also be in my best interest not to invest money I can't afford to lose.
So, if somebody thinks they have been "cheated" because they made a bad investment, they had better stay out of the market.

Some stocks go up, some go down. Why else do wise investors take care to have broad portfolio?

Ken V.

I tend to agree. Caveat Emptor still works for me. Fraud is one thing, but just taking advantage of information at your disposal is another.

[Jay #1]

As a friend of mine pointed out, she was never charged for the crime of insider trading itself. However, she is being brought up on charges of obstructing as you said, and contempt. Obstructing what? was my friends question, and "How can she be in contempt, when she never got the chance to speak in the courtroom? It'd be at least vaguely understandable if she had been sworn in, and it never even got that far."

Personally, I think that even trying Martha Stewart was a travesty. As mentioned she was was convicted of a felony for obstructing justice for a crime, the charges of which were later dropped. Seems like she is being convicted for being tougher and smarter than the male executives she once worked under. I mean, would anyone make a big deal out of some male exec. carrying a 5,000 dollar briefcase? Anyway Lisa, little jail time is relative. She is guaranteed a sentence of at least 12 months, and will most likely be senteced to between 12 and 17 months. This is due to mandated uniform sentencing guidelines. The judge has no ability to give her less for her "crimes."

[Biggles]

As a friend of mine pointed out, she was never charged for the crime of insider trading itself. However, she is being brought up on charges of obstructing as you said, and contempt. Obstructing what? was my friends question, and "How can she be in contempt, when she never got the chance to speak in the courtroom? It'd be at least vaguely understandable if she had been sworn in, and it never even got that far."

Here's the gig: The feds have made it a felony to lie to federal agents. It used to be that you could lie to cops all you want, as long as you weren't under oath. She did not perjure herself, because she never testified under oath. Her mistake was being cooperative. REMEMBER: No good deed goes unpunished (at least not in the criminal justice system). You are better off telling a fed "Kiss my @$$" than giving him a statement.