New Gunny question: 9mm or .40 cal?

[fpw]

Went to my 40th high school reunion over the weekend (40 YEARS! Oy!) and had a long talk with a classmate who's been in the FBI for 30-35 years. He was very down on the 9mm round. He swears my the .40 caliber. He was so adamant and made such a good case, I'm thinking of switching Jack to the .40.

I know you guys have touted the .40 over the 9mm before, but give me a few more deatails to help me make up Jack's mind..

[Biggles]

Went to my 40th high school reunion over the weekend (40 YEARS! Oy!) and had a long talk with a classmate who's been in the FBI for 30-35 years. He was very down on the 9mm round. He swears my the .40 caliber. He was so adamant and made such a good case, I'm thinking of switching Jack to the .40.

I know you guys have touted the .40 over the 9mm before, but give me a few more deatails to help me make up Jack's mind..

Ken may like the .40, but the only .40 calibre round I like in an auto is the .400 CorBon, which is a necked down .45 ACP. I have a .400 CorBon barrel in my Glock 21 .45, and I love the ballistics, but it's too large for a daily carry gun.

The FBI has a morbid fascination with the .40 calibre round, but much of that stems from the infamous Miami shootout, where several of their agents were carrying the totally inadequate .38 SPL 158 grain LHP loading (in 2" snubbies, no less). They got their asses scragged, and the Bureau looked to the 10mm as a possible new calibre. Because many of their agents couldn't handle a "full house" 10mm loading (which is more than adequate for deer or wild boar), they downloaded the 10mm to subsonic velocities, the "FBI load". Smith & Wesson correctly perceived that those anemic ballistics could be obtained in a shorter case, and came out with the .40 S&W (Smith & Wesson or "short & weak").

Here's my position: The .40 S&W makes a bigger hole, but gives up a lot of velocity over the 9mm out of the same barrel. Kinetic Energy (KE) is more a function of velocity than bullet weight. The best .40 S&W loading would be the CorBon 135 grain at 1325 fps for 526 FP of KE. The 9mm 115 grain Corbon at 1350 FPS delivers 466 FP of KE. At those bullet weights and velocities, 60 foot-pounds is not a big difference. In a Glock 19 like Jack's you have 15 rounds in the mag (plus 2 if you have the extension). In the Glock 23 (.40 S&W) you only have 13 rounds (plus two with a mag extension).

Also, most of Jack's armed adversaries will likely be armed with 9mm pistols. If he's in a fire fight and needs to reload (remembering that he travels light), he can scavenge rounds from downed adversaries to top off his mags. This is the same reason (besides the fact that I just don't like the M16/AR15) that I would choose an AK if I were behind enemy lines.

The .40 S&W is a compromise, and in my view, not a very good round unless it's uploaded with a light bullet at high velocity. I think so little of the .40 S&W that I don't own a single pistol chambered in that calibre.

With all due respect to agencies that have adopted the .40 S&W, I see no advantage over the 9mm in it's high performance loadings. I agree with Sanow and Marshall that velocity and expansion are the key to terminal ballistics. Especially out of a short barrel, as Jack is likely to have, the lighter, faster 9mm is a better deal.

[Scott Hajek]

If one of you guys got fired from your job, would that be a "Gunny Sack?"

[Ken Valentine]

Ken may like the .40, but the only .40 calibre round I like in an auto is the .400 CorBon, which is a necked down .45 ACP. I have a .400 CorBon barrel in my Glock 21 .45, and I love the ballistics, but it's too large for a daily carry gun.

I'm not a fan of the .40S&W. I have a lot of .40 brass -- thousands of cases -- which I trade for something I have a use for . . . like .357 brass.



The FBI has a morbid fascination with the .40 calibre round, but much of that stems from the infamous Miami shootout, where several of their agents were carrying the totally inadequate .38 SPL 158 grain LHP loading (in 2" snubbies, no less). They got their asses scragged, and the Bureau looked to the 10mm as a possible new calibre.

Two of the "agents" in that incident were carrying model 59 Smith & Wessons -- 9mm, 4-inch barrel, 15-round magazines. They shot them dry . . . TWICE! and didn't hit anything. The FBI (Famous But Incompetent) couldn't admit that their agents were a bunch of clowns, so they blamed the guns.

Because many of their agents couldn't handle a "full house" 10mm loading (which is more than adequate for deer or wild boar), they downloaded the 10mm to subsonic velocities, the "FBI load". Smith & Wesson correctly perceived that those anemic ballistics could be obtained in a shorter case, and came out with the .40 S&W (Smith & Wesson or "short & weak").

And the 9mm is S'er & even W'er. Is that what you're advocating? :D

Here's my position: The .40 S&W makes a bigger hole, but gives up a lot of velocity over the 9mm out of the same barrel. Kinetic Energy (KE) is more a function of velocity than bullet weight. The best .40 S&W loading would be the CorBon 135 grain at 1325 fps for 526 FP of KE. The 9mm 115 grain Corbon at 1350 FPS delivers 466 FP of KE. At those bullet weights and velocities, 60 foot-pounds is not a big difference. In a Glock 19 like Jack's you have 15 rounds in the mag (plus 2 if you have the extension). In the Glock 23 (.40 S&W) you only have 13 rounds (plus two with a mag extension).

By your own calculations, (correct by the way) the .40 has 13 percent (12-7/8th's to be exact) more power than the 9mm. Not an inconsiderable difference. (Going the other way, the 9mm has 10 percent LESS power.) About the same proportional difference as the .38 Special and the 9mm. Again . . . a not inconsiderable difference.

The Kel-Tec P40 holds one less round than the Kel-Tec P11 -- 9+1 versus 10+1, and only weighs two ounces more empty, and perhaps another ounce more loaded.

Also, most of Jack's armed adversaries will likely be armed with 9mm pistols. If he's in a fire fight and needs to reload (remembering that he travels light), he can scavenge rounds from downed adversaries to top off his mags. This is the same reason (besides the fact that I just don't like the M16/AR15) that I would choose an AK if I were behind enemy lines.

The .40 S&W is a compromise, and in my view, not a very good round unless it's uploaded with a light bullet at high velocity. I think so little of the .40 S&W that I don't own a single pistol chambered in that calibre.

With all due respect to agencies that have adopted the .40 S&W, I see no advantage over the 9mm in it's high performance loadings. I agree with Sanow and Marshall that velocity and expansion are the key to terminal ballistics. Especially out of a short barrel, as Jack is likely to have, the lighter, faster 9mm is a better deal.

If Jack is carrying a .40, his adversaries will be carrying 9's. If Jack is carrying a 9, his adversaries will be carrying .40's. All the yabbering about .40 S&W has caused criminals to start carrying them too. At least out here they do.

Back in the '50's, street gangs used switch blades. When the gummymint banned switch blades, they went to small die-cast .22's. When the goofermint banned those, the gangs turned to 9mm's. Now a great many of them are using .40 S&W's . . . can you say, "Gummymint-created ARMS RACE?"

The only hi-cap pistol I own is a S&W-559. It's essentially a steel-frame, wide-body model 39 chambered in 9mm. It has a 5-inch barrel, a compensator, an electronic dot-sight, mag-well funnel, a 1-3/4 pound trigger with .035 inches total trigger travel -- about the thickness of 3 business cards. I converted it to single action only. It's for competition. The high capacity feature is only to save time . . . fewer mag changes.

Ultimately, the .40 S&W is a compromise between the higher capacity and lower power of the 9mm, and the lower capacity and high power of the .45 ACP.

My advice -- if one chooses to take it -- is to carry the most powerful round you can readily handle . . . and make your shots count. We can go on forever about power, and muzzle energy, and caliber, and penetration, and forget that the most importand factor is SHOT PLACEMENT!

A grimly determined woman with a .22 is far more effective than an irresolute man with a .44 Mag.

Ken V.

[Ken Valentine]

Went to my 40th high school reunion over the weekend (40 YEARS! Oy!) and had a long talk with a classmate who's been in the FBI for 30-35 years. He was very down on the 9mm round. He swears my the .40 caliber. He was so adamant and made such a good case, I'm thinking of switching Jack to the .40.

I know you guys have touted the .40 over the 9mm before, but give me a few more deatails to help me make up Jack's mind..

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with the 9mm. Your average FBI agent can't hit anything with a 40S&W either.

I could tell you some stories . . . .

Ken V.

[Biggles]

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with the 9mm. Your average FBI agent can't hit anything with a 40S&W either.

I could tell you some stories . . . .

Ken V.

I didn't want to say that since the agent was one of Paul's friends. I once taught one of my probation officers to shoot. He qualified expert at the county range (as did my law clerk, whom I also taught). The PO eventually applied for and was accepted in the DEA. He had no problem qualifying at Quantico.

[Biggles]

I always thought the ParaOrdnance P14-45 stainless steel limited edition made for a good weapon for fictional use. Fourteen .45's in the clip plus one loaded.

My two cents.

Russ Madden

The ParaOrdnance .45s seem like a nice platform for those who like the .45ACP round. I own two .45s, a Norinco 1911A and a Glock 21. As great as the .45 was for our troops when they were limited to ball ammo, its wound ballistics leave a lot to be desired. 230 grain ball is far inferior to the 185 grain JHP, which in the CorBon loading is a decent stopper. If I had the option of carrying any of my pistols as a duty weapon (with concealability not an issue), it would be my Glock 21 with the .400 Corbon barrel dropped in. My 13 round mags all have plus 2 mag bases, for a total of 15 rounds per mag. You could literally whack a platoon with two 15 round mags (one shot, one kill).

[Biggles]

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with the 9mm. Your average FBI agent can't hit anything with a 40S&W either.

I could tell you some stories . . . .

Ken V.

For that matter, I would prefer the .357 Sig to the .40 S&W, but a hot 9mm +P load (which the Kel-Tec can handle because of its locked breech), can certainly approach .357 ballistics, with slightly greater mag cap. I have shot the hot CorBon loads through my P11 with excellent results.

[Ken Valentine]

The ParaOrdnance .45s seem like a nice platform for those who like the .45ACP round. I own two .45s, a Norinco 1911A and a Glock 21. As great as the .45 was for our troops when they were limited to ball ammo, its wound ballistics leave a lot to be desired. 230 grain ball is far inferior to the 185 grain JHP, which in the CorBon loading is a decent stopper. If I had the option of carrying any of my pistols as a duty weapon (with concealability not an issue), it would be my Glock 21 with the .400 Corbon barrel dropped in. My 13 round mags all have plus 2 mag bases, for a total of 15 rounds per mag. You could literally whack a platoon with two 15 round mags (one shot, one kill).

I built up a Para for a guy last year -- three slides, four barrels:

9mm/38 Super

40 S&W

45 ACP

The Para frames are not bad, but their slides are often badly machined. Caspian slides are very well made.

Ralph Aredondo makes some very nice plus two bases for Para Mags.

Ken V.

[Blades]

What happened to the good ol' .45 acp "Jack" was using?? That is the cool thing about "Jack", he likes his .45acp. Times change I guess. There is always the .45GAP, the new Glock round.
At least now "Jack" has his Spyderco Endura with him in "The Haunted Air". The Endura was the first Spyderco I bought back in 1993. I still carry it today(along with a few other Spyderco's). Great knife. Thanks for throwing in a "name" for "Jack's" pocket knife. :)



Blades

[Biggles]

What happened to the good ol' .45 acp "Jack" was using?? That is the cool thing about "Jack", he likes his .45acp. Times change I guess. There is always the .45GAP, the new Glock round.
At least now "Jack" has his Spyderco Endura with him in "The Haunted Air". The Endura was the first Spyderco I bought back in 1993. I still carry it today(along with a few other Spyderco's). Great knife. Thanks for throwing in a "name" for "Jack's" pocket knife. :)



Blades

The .45GAP sounds interesting if you like the .45 ACP's ballistics in a shorter case, but you still can't hold as many rounds in a magazine because of the case diameter. Plus (I know this is blasphemous) I just plain don't think the .45 moves fast enough. That's why I bought a .400 CorBon barrel for my Glock 21. Before that, I would carry it with 185 grain CorBon JHPs, which have impressive wound ballistics. If I were limited to ball ammo due to legal restrictions, I would go with a .45, but I don't like heavy slow bullets. I like light, fast bullets that expand violently and dump all their energy inside the target.

[Blades]

Biggles,
I think there are good/bad points for each bullet/caliber. There are plenty of gun forums that "debate" which one is best, but I think what it comes down to is, what gun you have with you, when needed, and can you hit your target?? What is the saying?? "A hit with a .22, is better then a miss with a .44" :) or as I like to twist it "A cut with a knife is better then a miss with a .22" :)

I thought the forums were here to help Mr. Wilson with guns and what not. I'm sure he already knows, but a ".38 AMT Backup"?? Someone left out a zero. Oh well.



Blades

[Biggles]

I thought the forums were here to help Mr. Wilson with guns and what not. I'm sure he already knows, but a ".38 AMT Backup"?? Someone left out a zero. Oh well.

Blades

Yeah, we already mentioned that. I'm sure it was the proofreader, since Paul knows a fair amount about guns.

[99mustang232]

I own two .45s, a Norinco 1911A and a Glock 21. As great as the .45 was for our troops when they were limited to ball ammo, its wound ballistics leave a lot to be desired. 230 grain ball is far inferior to the 185 grain JHP, which in the CorBon loading is a decent stopper. If I had the option of carrying any of my pistols as a duty weapon (with concealability not an issue), it would be my Glock 21 with the .400 Corbon barrel dropped in. My 13 round mags all have plus 2 mag bases, for a total of 15 rounds per mag. You could literally whack a platoon with two 15 round mags (one shot, one kill).

needless to say i have the same two guns, but have been looking at the plus 2 bottoms for my 4 13rnd mags, saw some online but not upgraded springs, did you use the OE springs or replace them? speaking of whacking a platoon, what do you think could happen if you used two of the 40rnd drums you can get from sportsmanguide.com (http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=282500)

[Bluesman Mike Lindner]

If one of you guys got fired from your job, would that be a "Gunny Sack?"

Haw!

[ShadowLord]

Hi all,
I watch a few of those Top Ten shows on the Military channel. I pulled up a top ten list from a google search and up came the following list ..

10. Browning Hi Power / FN Hi Power.
9. SIG P210.
8. HK P7.
7. Beretta Cougar.
6. HK USP series.
5. SIG P220 and the compact P245.
4. Springfield XD.
3. Beretta 92FS.
2. 1911 and its many variants.
1. CZ P-01

(remember this list has different reasons for why they are highly ranked)
Anyways the next thing I did was a quick cut and paste for the individual weapons and again a Google search for each of the weapons named to get some nice detailed info on them..

IE .....
google the CZ P-01
and from a guns and ammo magazine link comes the following info..
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from guns and ammo mag..


CZ P-01
Ceska Zbrojovka (or CZ) adds to their already impressive 9mm line-up.
By Payton Miller

The CZ 75, along with the Browning Hi-Power, SIG-P226 and Glock 17, is rightfully regarded as one of the world's great 9mm pistols. And although Ceska Zbrojovka's product line has expanded beyond the service auto that made it famous in the United States, the CZ 75 is what most American shooters reflexively associate with the company.

Naturally, over the years CZ has tweaked the original platform in an effort to offer model variants to the 75. But the new P-01 (despite the nomenclature) is the first such 75 offshoot to be offered in the new millennium. It's also the result of three years of development and exhaustive testing and will be the new sidearm of the Czech national police.

It features an aluminum alloy frame, a decocker, a firing-pin block and an M3 rail for tactical lights and/or laser sights. It's shorter overall (7.2 inches vs. 8.1 inches) and lighter (27 ounces vs. 34.3 ounces) than the standard 75B. It's also easier for the short-fingered to access the P-01's reconfigured trigger in the DA mode (which was just about the only complaint I've ever heard in regard to the 75, besides the fact that there's not quite enough slide to grab and rack back comfortably).


The frame of the P-01 is slightly wider at the top than that of a 75 for added rigidity, necessitated perhaps by the light rail. And the slide release has been reconfigured and is now a bit quicker to access.


Since more than 60 countries now use the CZ 75 in one official capacity or another, anything purporting to be an improvement had better be pretty good. I recently put close to 500 rounds through the new gun and was extremely impressed. I fired Winchester USA 115-grain FMJs, Black Hills 115-grain JHP Plus-Ps, Winchester Supreme SST 147-grain JHPs, Remington/UMC 124-grain FMJs and Speer Lawman 115-grain JHPs through it without a single hitch (and not even a cursory attempt at cleaning the pistol).

At 25 yards, five-shot groups ranged from acceptable (three to four inches) to superb (two inches or less). And all loads printed close enough to point of aim so that you'd feel confident using any of them. The best performers? Black Hills' 115-grain JHP Plus-P and Winchester's 147-grain SXT. My best effort with the Black Hills stuff would've been an honest 11⁄2 inches were it not for a single flyer. The Winchester stuff averaged slightly under two inches.

SPECIFICATIONS

Importer: CZ-USA
Action: Double-action auto
Caliber: 9mm Parabellum
Capacity: 10
Barrel length: 3.8 inches
Overall length: 7.2 inches
Weight: 27 ounces
Sights: Fixed three-dot
Grips: Checkered rubber
Finish: Black Polycoat
Price: $569



The double-action trigger pull was a smooth and hitch-less 12 pounds. In single-action mode, it broke at five pounds after considerable take-up.

I liked this pistol a lot, which is understandable because I'm a big fan of the CZ 75. The 75, however, is a full-size pistol, and I can certainly understand the appeal of a shorter, lighter variant. Since I'm a semi-casual sport shooter, the hammer drop, light rail and lanyard ring aren't much use to me. But make no mistake about it, CZ's P-01 appears to be an outstanding duty pistol. It's dead reliable, more accurate than it probably needs to be and a bit friendlier to the small-handed than the time-honored 75. Whether its appeal extends beyond its East European service niche remains to be seen. But it's definitely on the short list for "Most Desirable 9mm." --Payton Miller
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Needless to say you can also do the top ten assult rifles etc..
The M1 used by Jacks dad in Gateways was rated the Number 4 on the list..


Here is a nice google link for that weapon..

http://www.olive-drab.com/od_other_firearms_rifle_m1c-m1d.php
-------------------------------------------------------------------

ShadowLord
Interesting reading for those who are into guns..

[webby]

I was just curious and so I asked Hubby if he had an opinion about this, since he's far more knowledgable about such things than I am. I am posting his response because I thought it was downright amusing.

"The debate over 9mm vs. .40 S&W will rage on forever. Between the 9mm and .40, your best choice is .45 ACP." :D

And really, don't we all miss that little Semmerling .45 anyway?

[Ken Valentine]

needless to say i have the same two guns, but have been looking at the plus 2 bottoms for my 4 13rnd mags, saw some online but not upgraded springs, did you use the OE springs or replace them?

OEM magazine springs are generally strong enough that 3/4th's of an inch less compression won't have any effect.


speaking of whacking a platoon, what do you think could happen if you used two of the 40rnd drums you can get from sportsmanguide.com (http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=282500)

No offense, but I think you'd get your ass shot off. You've got fourty targets to shoot, those fourty can all concentrate on one target . . . you!

It's skill, and tactics, not equipment. All too many people -- and I've seen this too many times in competition -- imagine that having the latest equipment will make them better shooters. These same people also tend to blame the equipment when they lose. And they almost invariably lose to someone who is less on the high-tech, more on the practise, side of the equation.

Ken V.

[Ken Valentine]

I was just curious and so I asked Hubby if he had an opinion about this, since he's far more knowledgable about such things than I am. I am posting his response because I thought it was downright amusing.

"The debate over 9mm vs. .40 S&W will rage on forever. Between the 9mm and .40, your best choice is .45 ACP." :D

With all due respect to your Hobby . . er . . . HUBBY, :D it's not so much a matter of caliber as it is of shot placement. Granted, the larger caliber is more effective in creating a bigger wound-channel, but it also depends on the effectiveness of the bullet.

Biggles is right about dumping all of the bullets energy in your attacker. A 45ACP -- in military ball (round-nose, jacketed) -- won't do that. Slow as it is, (are you listening Biggles?) it'll go right through two men and lodge in the third. 45 ACP with Federal Hydra-Shok, or Eldorado Starfire will stop in your attacker because they are designed to expand even at relatively low velocities. (They work great in 9mm and 40 S&W as well.)

With Eldorado Starfire, a 9mm turns into a 44 caliber, a 40 S&W turns into a 52 caliber, and a 45 turns into nearly a 70 caliber. This greatly increases its resistance to over-penetrate.

As much as gun writers try to make it so, there is no really hard, fast, science to this. It depends on your will, your accuracy, the will of your attacker . . . it can even depend on what kind of clothing your attacker is wearing.

Personally, I generally wouldn't carry anything less than a 380 -- although I have on occasion carried a Beretta Minx in 25 Auto -- and nothing more than a 45 ACP. (44 Mag has too much penetration unless you're shooting at distances greater than 100 yards.)

Ballistically, 9mm fits in between the 38 Special and the 357 magnum. The 40 S&W is a good round and so is the 45 ACP (if its not military ball.) Carry what you like best and are most familiar with.

I digress here, but I love this (true) story.

Massad Ayoob tells of an instance where a man was attacked on a New York Subway -- this happened long before the Bernard Getz incident -- where the intended victim had a concealed carry permit. The intended victim also was kind of lazy and tended to clean and lube his revolver by spraying it with WD-40.

WD-40 is intended to displace water (that's what the WD stands for . . . Water Displacement) so it can, and will, insinuate its way into a cartridge by way of the primer pocket -- killing the primer in the process.

This man was approached by a criminal with a knife on the subway. He drew his gun, pointed it at his attackers face and pressed the trigger. He later said that the CLICK the gun made was the loudest sound he had ever heard in his life.

His attacker, on hearing that click, simply rolled his eyes up and fainted.

Ken V.

[webby]

As much as gun writers try to make it so, there is no really hard, fast, science to this. It depends on your will, your accuracy, the will of your attacker . . . it can even depend on what kind of clothing your attacker is wearing.

That's what makes the most sense to me. One of you guys posted something about a "determined woman with a .22" and even though I carry a larger calibre I had to smile at that. There is a lot to be said for the skill and willingness of the people involved, no matter what kind of guns they bring to the fight. ;)

[cobalt79]

One thing best remembered....if you carry a gun and have to draw it to protect yourself....you better be committed to shooting it. Doing so with accuracy is also a given. I have never had to do this, but I will if I have to.

[Bluesman Mike Lindner]

One thing best remembered....if you carry a gun and have to draw it to protect yourself....you better be committed to shooting it. Doing so with accuracy is also a given. I have never had to do this, but I will if I have to.

So true, Cobalt. I'd say, in =any= situation where you decide violence is called for, plan your move AND DO NOT HESITATE! CARRY THROUGH! As RAH noted, that's the level at which a 5-pound mother cat can drive off a 60-pound police dog. "Little man drop a big man every time, if the little man's in the right and he keeps on a-coming."

[Biggles]

needless to say i have the same two guns, but have been looking at the plus 2 bottoms for my 4 13rnd mags, saw some online but not upgraded springs, did you use the OE springs or replace them? speaking of whacking a platoon, what do you think could happen if you used two of the 40rnd drums you can get from sportsmanguide.com (http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=282500)

I didn't replace the springs, as they were stout enough as is (or perhaps "as are"--I have a shitload of mags).

[Biggles]

Hi all,
I watch a few of those Top Ten shows on the Military channel. I pulled up a top ten list from a google search and up came the following list ..

10. Browning Hi Power / FN Hi Power.
9. SIG P210.
8. HK P7.
7. Beretta Cougar.
6. HK USP series.
5. SIG P220 and the compact P245.
4. Springfield XD.
3. Beretta 92FS.
2. 1911 and its many variants.
1. CZ P-01

(remember this list has different reasons for why they are highly ranked)
Anyways the next thing I did was a quick cut and paste for the individual weapons and again a Google search for each of the weapons named to get some nice detailed info on them..

IE .....
google the CZ P-01
and from a guns and ammo magazine link comes the following info..
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from guns and ammo mag..


CZ P-01
Ceska Zbrojovka (or CZ) adds to their already impressive 9mm line-up.
By Payton Miller

The CZ 75, along with the Browning Hi-Power, SIG-P226 and Glock 17, is rightfully regarded as one of the world's great 9mm pistols. And although Ceska Zbrojovka's product line has expanded beyond the service auto that made it famous in the United States, the CZ 75 is what most American shooters reflexively associate with the company.

Naturally, over the years CZ has tweaked the original platform in an effort to offer model variants to the 75. But the new P-01 (despite the nomenclature) is the first such 75 offshoot to be offered in the new millennium. It's also the result of three years of development and exhaustive testing and will be the new sidearm of the Czech national police.

It features an aluminum alloy frame, a decocker, a firing-pin block and an M3 rail for tactical lights and/or laser sights. It's shorter overall (7.2 inches vs. 8.1 inches) and lighter (27 ounces vs. 34.3 ounces) than the standard 75B. It's also easier for the short-fingered to access the P-01's reconfigured trigger in the DA mode (which was just about the only complaint I've ever heard in regard to the 75, besides the fact that there's not quite enough slide to grab and rack back comfortably).


The frame of the P-01 is slightly wider at the top than that of a 75 for added rigidity, necessitated perhaps by the light rail. And the slide release has been reconfigured and is now a bit quicker to access.


Since more than 60 countries now use the CZ 75 in one official capacity or another, anything purporting to be an improvement had better be pretty good. I recently put close to 500 rounds through the new gun and was extremely impressed. I fired Winchester USA 115-grain FMJs, Black Hills 115-grain JHP Plus-Ps, Winchester Supreme SST 147-grain JHPs, Remington/UMC 124-grain FMJs and Speer Lawman 115-grain JHPs through it without a single hitch (and not even a cursory attempt at cleaning the pistol).

At 25 yards, five-shot groups ranged from acceptable (three to four inches) to superb (two inches or less). And all loads printed close enough to point of aim so that you'd feel confident using any of them. The best performers? Black Hills' 115-grain JHP Plus-P and Winchester's 147-grain SXT. My best effort with the Black Hills stuff would've been an honest 11⁄2 inches were it not for a single flyer. The Winchester stuff averaged slightly under two inches.

SPECIFICATIONS

Importer: CZ-USA
Action: Double-action auto
Caliber: 9mm Parabellum
Capacity: 10
Barrel length: 3.8 inches
Overall length: 7.2 inches
Weight: 27 ounces
Sights: Fixed three-dot
Grips: Checkered rubber
Finish: Black Polycoat
Price: $569



The double-action trigger pull was a smooth and hitch-less 12 pounds. In single-action mode, it broke at five pounds after considerable take-up.

I liked this pistol a lot, which is understandable because I'm a big fan of the CZ 75. The 75, however, is a full-size pistol, and I can certainly understand the appeal of a shorter, lighter variant. Since I'm a semi-casual sport shooter, the hammer drop, light rail and lanyard ring aren't much use to me. But make no mistake about it, CZ's P-01 appears to be an outstanding duty pistol. It's dead reliable, more accurate than it probably needs to be and a bit friendlier to the small-handed than the time-honored 75. Whether its appeal extends beyond its East European service niche remains to be seen. But it's definitely on the short list for "Most Desirable 9mm." --Payton Miller
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Needless to say you can also do the top ten assult rifles etc..
The M1 used by Jacks dad in Gateways was rated the Number 4 on the list..


Here is a nice google link for that weapon..

http://www.olive-drab.com/od_other_firearms_rifle_m1c-m1d.php
-------------------------------------------------------------------

ShadowLord
Interesting reading for those who are into guns..


I've shot many of these, and most would not make my top ten list.

[Biggles]

One thing best remembered....if you carry a gun and have to draw it to protect yourself....you better be committed to shooting it. Doing so with accuracy is also a given. I have never had to do this, but I will if I have to.

True, very true.

[ShadowLord]

I hear ya Biggles -- things like production ratings help to make some of those guns listed into the top 10--
Production ratings don't matter to the user do they....stopping power does!

ShadowLord

[Ken Valentine]

That's what makes the most sense to me. One of you guys posted something about a "determined woman with a .22" and even though I carry a larger calibre I had to smile at that.

I think that may have been me. I once said something to the effect that a grimly determined woman with a 22 would be far more effective than an irresolute man with a 44 magnum.

There is a lot to be said for the skill and willingness of the people involved, no matter what kind of guns they bring to the fight. ;)

I would say that skill and determination should be at the top of the list, firepower comes next.

Ken V.

[thelastvalar]

Come on now folks...a contest between 9mm and .40? It goes to the 40 cal automatically. Bigger round=bigger hole. Plus with a glock you can carry almost as many rounds. My glock 21 is holds 15+1 (granted its law enforcement issue) but since the extended mag ban ended, they're not too hard to come by. Not to mention the fact that Jack wouldn't worry about no stinkin' gun ban to begin with.

My great uncle used to tell a story about WWII. He said his squad leader got shot with a 6 round burst of 9mm, from hip to shoulder. Apparently this just wasn't enough to finish his squad leader off, and the man, with six bullet holes in him, shot the german with one well placed .45 and finished him off. My uncle's quote was "I always felt sorry for that rotten kraut."

Me personally, i'd love to see Jack stick to the .45, it's by far my favorite caliber, and when you hit someone, you know they're going to stay down. But if its a fight between a 9mil and a .40, well I hate to be the one to say it, but SIZE DOES MATTER.

[thelastvalar]

Sorry, but it slipped my mind. To all of my fellow gun nuts out there, has anyone taken a long hard look at the 5.7 caliber pistol being made by FN? Enough power in a pistol to punch through a one inch titanium plate after traveling 100 meters, slim, easy to conceal, and a decent capacity. Could be right up Jacko's alley if he ever needs to take on someone wearing body armor.

[Ken Valentine]

Come on now folks...a contest between 9mm and .40? It goes to the 40 cal automatically. Bigger round=bigger hole. Plus with a glock you can carry almost as many rounds. My glock 21 is holds 15+1 (granted its law enforcement issue) but since the extended mag ban ended, they're not too hard to come by. Not to mention the fact that Jack wouldn't worry about no stinkin' gun ban to begin with.

The .40 S&W is a good round, but what counts most is bullet design.

My late brother had 13 Glocks in his collection:

2 ea. Glock 17 -- 9mm. (One with Tritium night sights.)

1 ea. Glock 17L. -- 9mm.

3 ea. Glock 20 -- 10 mm.

1 ea. Glock 21 -- 45 ACP.

3 ea. Glock 22 -- 40 S&W.

2 ea. Glock 23 -- 40 S&W.

1 ea. Glock 27 -- 40 S&W.

And scores of magazines.

I let all of them go to auction.

I can't stand Glocks!


My great uncle used to tell a story about WWII. He said his squad leader got shot with a 6 round burst of 9mm, from hip to shoulder. Apparently this just wasn't enough to finish his squad leader off, and the man, with six bullet holes in him, shot the german with one well placed .45 and finished him off. My uncle's quote was "I always felt sorry for that rotten kraut."

The key words here being "well placed."

9mm or 45 ACP, military ball is definitely NOT the deadliest bullet to be hit with. If you survive for 30 minutes after being hit, you'll most likely live your normal span. (Doesn't necessarily mean you won't suffer nerve damage. Again, it depends on where you're hit.)

Me personally, i'd love to see Jack stick to the .45, it's by far my favorite caliber, and when you hit someone, you know they're going to stay down.

Depends on where you hit them. Generally speaking, if a round isn't powerful enough to knock you down when you shoot it, it's not going to knock down the person you hit either -- unless they're off balance of course.

But if its a fight between a 9mil and a .40, well I hate to be the one to say it, but SIZE DOES MATTER.

Size helps, but by far, what matters most is shot placement.

Ken V.

[Ken Valentine]

Sorry, but it slipped my mind. To all of my fellow gun nuts out there, has anyone taken a long hard look at the 5.7 caliber pistol being made by FN?

Yeah, I've taken a look at. All it amounts to is a .223 Remington-short.

The metric designation of the .223 Remingtom is 5.56 x 45 mm and the FN 5.7 is equivalent to being a 5.56 x 28 mm. The diameter of the bullet is exactly the same -- 224 thousandths of an inch.

The best direct comparison would be the SS-193 round with a 55 grain bullet and a muzzle velocity of 1,000 feet per second fired from the PS-90 carbine with a 16-inch barrel, (122 foot pounds of muzzle energy -- and an effective range of 100 meters. The 45 ACP has 356 foot pounds of muzzle energy!) and the 5.56 NATO with a 55-grain bullet and a muzzle velocity of 3,000 feet per second and 1099 foot pounds of muzzle energy . . . fired from a 16-inch barrel.

Enough power in a pistol to punch through a one inch titanium plate after traveling 100 meters, ...

Somebody's pulling your leg.

The SS-190 round (armor piercing) has a 32 grain bullet, and a muzzle velocity of 2,350 feet per second from a carbine with a 16-inch barrel. It's effective range is 200 meters. Punch through 1-inch thick Titanium at 100 meters? In a hand gun? No Way! A 68 grain 5.56 Nato armor piercing bullet at 2,900 fps in a rifle won't do that. Not even close!

Could be right up Jacko's alley if he ever needs to take on someone wearing body armor.

Why bother with that when a .22 Magnum will do the same thing. Or a .17 HMR.

Ken V.

[tooleman]

Went to my 40th high school reunion over the weekend (40 YEARS! Oy!) and had a long talk with a classmate who's been in the FBI for 30-35 years. He was very down on the 9mm round. He swears my the .40 caliber. He was so adamant and made such a good case, I'm thinking of switching Jack to the .40.

I know you guys have touted the .40 over the 9mm before, but give me a few more deatails to help me make up Jack's mind..
I like both, at ten to twenty feet the .40 would be my choice simply because it’s a heavier round.

[Bruno JJ 1]

9 x 19 = women
.40 S&W = brain wackos ( teenagers )
.45ACP = grown up mens
Scotty Reitz, LAPD Metro / Swat 114

[NewYorkjoe]

Sorry, but it slipped my mind. To all of my fellow gun nuts out there, has anyone taken a long hard look at the 5.7 caliber pistol being made by FN? Enough power in a pistol to punch through a one inch titanium plate after traveling 100 meters, slim, easy to conceal, and a decent capacity. Could be right up Jacko's alley if he ever needs to take on someone wearing body armor.

I've already suggested the Five seveN for Jack, months ago! ;)
I traded for an FNH Five seveN this past summer, a Colt Mustang Plus II (.380), Walther P-22, and my old Glock 17 (I still have 3 other Glocks and I love 'em, unlike Ken).

The 5.7 mm ammo is kind of pricey, but starting to come down. The gun is unbelievably light, but has very little recoil and is quite accurate. The armor-piercing round is not available on the civilian market. It will pierce Class II body armor at 100 meters and Class IIIA at 30 meters, but I believe that includes standard trauma plates, which are titanium, but thinner than one inch thick. I'm looking for a green daytime laser for it, then I'll get a shoulder holster made to carry it with a double-magazine carrier on the other side.

I like the 20-round magazines and they feed flawlessly. The 5.7-mm round was first developed by FNH for their P-90 submachinegun (you can see them sometimes on Stargate Atlantis). It was designed mainly for support and behind the frontlines personnel who need to carry some kind of weapon, more than a pistol and smaller than a true assault rifle, kind of like what the M-1 carbine was intended for and failed to live up to. When customers wanted a pistol in the same caliber as the submachinegun, FNH complied, hence the Five seveN.

Other than this, I can add nothing to what other posters have said previously on this thread. I personally feel 9-mm is adequate, provided it is delivered with accuracy and the projectile is more than an FMJ. I choose Glasers for my Kahr PM9 for backup and close up. I load Hydra-Shoks in my Glock 19. Lately, though, I've been carrying my Kimber Eclipse Officer's Model with a mag full of Devastators. The Kimber is just so solid and locks up tight. However, if I had to choose one and only one handgun to bet my life on, it would have to be my Glock 17L target model (long-slide, compensated, and 3.5-lb trigger). At normal pistol ranges, I can double-tap two holes that touch and it holds 20 rounds.

IMHO, the .40 S&W round is the answer to a problem that does not exist. If I can't do what needs to be done with a 9-mm or .45, then I'm grabbing a rifle.

NewYorkjoe

[Biggles]

IMHO, the .40 S&W round is the answer to a problem that does not exist. If I can't do what needs to be done with a 9-mm or .45, then I'm grabbing a rifle.

NewYorkjoe

I certainly agree with your bottom line! The .40 Short&Weak is an unnecessary round. If I want a pistol round in .40/10mm calibre I'll opt for the 10mm in its fullhouse loading or the .400 CorBon. I own and fire both calibres (100mm and .400 CorBon), which is why I own NO .40 S&Ws. My carry options depend upon various factors, but they go as follows: 9mm, 9mmMAK, .32ACP (Glasers), in declining order depending upon concealability issues.

[Ken Valentine]

I've already suggested the Five seveN for Jack, months ago! ;)
I traded for an FNH Five seveN this past summer, a Colt Mustang Plus II (.380), Walther P-22, and my old Glock 17 (I still have 3 other Glocks and I love 'em, unlike Ken).

Just because I don't like them, doesn't mean that you can't like them.

The primary reason I don't like them is because the grip angle is wrong for me. After having fired 1911's for so many years, I've long since reached the point where I can look at a target, close my eyes, draw from leather -- or Kydex as the case may be -- and the gun will be on target with sights aligned when I open my eyes. With their steeper grip-angle, the Glocks invariably point high above the target.

The second thing I don't like about them is the plastic frame. I just cannot modify plastic the way I can steel -- or even aluminum.

Third thing is, unless I invest in a Bar-Sto barrel, I can't shoot lead in a Glock. That rounded-land, semi-polygonal barrel has a very great tendency to lead up, and as I save a tremendous amount of money by casting my own bullets for practise, I shoot a lot of lead.

The 5.7 mm ammo is kind of pricey, but starting to come down. The gun is unbelievably light, but has very little recoil and is quite accurate. The armor-piercing round is not available on the civilian market. It will pierce Class II body armor at 100 meters and Class IIIA at 30 meters, but I believe that includes standard trauma plates, which are titanium, but thinner than one inch thick.

Considerably thinner than one inch I would imagine. Although Titanium is about 45 percent lighter than its equivalent size in steel, a one inch thick plate is still pretty heavy -- not something you would want to be wearing all day. And a 7.62 Nato round wouldn't be able to punch through one inch thick Ti plate, although an armor piercing round might -- possibly . . . just barely. But I doubt it. So the idea that a 36-grain, .22 caliber round could do it at 100 yards is pure rubbish.

According to the FNHUSA website:

http://www.fnhusa.com/contents/tw_57x28mm.htm

"FNH USA has tested the SS195LF, SS196 and SS197 products against NIJ Level IIIA soft body armor, which is today’s benchmark in soft body armor technology. The SS195LF, SS196 and SS197 did not penetrate the Level IIIA soft body armor tested by FN Herstal." (Q-7)

Those are the three commercially available rounds available in the U.S..

Furthermore, I'm betting that the firearm used in what you mention above is the 16-inch barreled carbine, and is most likely using the Armor Piercing round.

That round, fired from a hand gun would be even less effective.

I like the 20-round magazines and they feed flawlessly. The 5.7-mm round was first developed by FNH for their P-90 submachinegun (you can see them sometimes on Stargate Atlantis).

You can also see them on the website I linked above.

If a small. low recoil round is what you're interested in, why not go with the 17HMR? :D

Other than this, I can add nothing to what other posters have said previously on this thread. I personally feel 9-mm is adequate, provided it is delivered with accuracy and the projectile is more than an FMJ. I choose Glasers for my Kahr PM9 for backup and close up. I load Hydra-Shoks in my Glock 19. Lately, though, I've been carrying my Kimber Eclipse Officer's Model with a mag full of Devastators. The Kimber is just so solid and locks up tight.

Kimber makes a very high quality product. And you made a very good choice in buying one.

IMHO, the .40 S&W round is the answer to a problem that does not exist. If I can't do what needs to be done with a 9-mm or .45, then I'm grabbing a rifle.

The 40 S&W was the result of that FBI screw-up in Miami back in 1986.

Two of the FBI officers fired their 15-round S&W 9mm's dry, twice, and between them made only one hit on the bank robbers. Embarassed, the FBI blamed it on the guns. The guns just werent powerful enough. So, they did a bit of research and decided that the 10mm was the way to go.

Problem was . . . being that the FBI agents were ineffective in hitting their targets with 9mm's, the high-recoil 10mm's were even more difficult for them to hit with. So, the FBI down loaded the 10mm.

Smith & Wesson saw an opportunuty. If you're going to use so little powder, why have such a long cartridge. So they shortened the brass cartridge case from 0.992 inches for the 10mm, to 0.850 for the 40 S&W. They also substituted a small pistol primer for the large primer of the 10mm. And the 40 Smith & Wesson was born.

It's not a bad round, in fact, in some loadings, it has more energy than the 45 ACP.

Here's a comparison using Remington ammunition:

9-mm Remington Golden Saber +P:
124-grain bullet
1180 FPS Muzzle velocity
383 foot/pounds muzzle energy
38 - efficacy (muzzle energy X bullet area)

357 Magnum Remington Express:
158-grain bullet
1235 FPS muzzle velocity
535 foot/pounds muzzle energy
54 - efficacy (muzzle energy X bullet area)

40 S&W Remington Golden Saber:
165-grain bullet
1150 FPS muzzle velocity
485 foot/pounds muzzle energy
61 - efficacy (muzzle energy X bullet area)

45 ACP Remington Golden Saber:
230-grain bullet
875 FPS muzzle velocity
391 foot/pounds muzzle energy
62 - efficacy (muzzle energy X bullet area)

44 Magnum Remington Express:
240-grain bullet
1180 FPS muzzle velocity
742 foot/pounds muzzle energy
108 - efficacy (muzzle energy X bullet area)

Regardless of which one you choose, the three most important factors are shot placement, shot placement, and shot placement.

Ken V.

[law dawg]

The 40 S&W was the result of that FBI screw-up in Miami back in 1986.

Two of the FBI officers fired their 15-round S&W 9mm's dry, twice, and between them made only one hit on the bank robbers. Embarassed, the FBI blamed it on the guns. The guns just werent powerful enough. So, they did a bit of research and decided that the 10mm was the way to go.
The biggest problem they had was 1) the driver of the lead car lost his pistol because he had taken it out of his holster and placed it between his legs for quicker access (until they wrecked and whoops..) and 2) their best shooter/tactician had his glasses knocked off during the wreck and was then taken out.

If it wasn't for the feebie with the shotgun........he saved their lives. No doubt.

This incident goes far to show how much scenario training needs to be an intregal part of training. Punching holes in paper is one thing, shooting in an adrenalized state while someone else is trying to kill you is another.

It's not a bad round, in fact, in some loadings, it has more energy than the 45 ACP.
I *like* the .40. I also have over a thousand rounds of it......

I dislike the 9mm. Just my opinion.

Regardless of which one you choose, the three most important factors are shot placement, shot placement, and shot placement.

Ken V.
100% correct. Unfortunately, in an adrenalized state its very, very hard to get good shot placement. Especially if the target is moving and also shooting back at you.

Montie

[Ken Valentine]

The biggest problem they had was 1) the driver of the lead car lost his pistol because he had taken it out of his holster and placed it between his legs for quicker access (until they wrecked and whoops..) and 2) their best shooter/tactician had his glasses knocked off during the wreck and was then taken out.

If it wasn't for the feebie with the shotgun........he saved their lives. No doubt.

Agent Mireles fired four or five rounds of 00-buck at Platt hitting him once . . . in the feet. It seems that Agent Mireles did end the shootout, but he did so with his 38 Special revolver.

This incident goes far to show how much scenario training needs to be an intregal part of training. Punching holes in paper is one thing, shooting in an adrenalized state while someone else is trying to kill you is another.

I would imagine that Platt and Matix were also in an adrenalized state, and they were out-numbered . . . four to one. They killed two FBI agents and wounded five others before they were finally "stopped." Did they have better training than the FBI?

100% correct. Unfortunately, in an adrenalized state its very, very hard to get good shot placement. Especially if the target is moving and also shooting back at you.

I wasn't talking about the ease or difficulty of shot placement . . . I was talking about the importance of it.

And we have been through all this before. You mention punching holes in paper . . . well, if they can't even hit the paper, tactical and scenario training isn't going to help them much.

Ken V.

P.S. http://www.thegunzone.com/11april86.html

[NewYorkjoe]

Just because I don't like them, doesn't mean that you can't like them.

I know, didn't mean to say different. The trigger takes getting used to. The trigger on my Kahr is actually much better.


The primary reason I don't like them is because the grip angle is wrong for me. After having fired 1911's for so many years, I've long since reached the point where I can look at a target, close my eyes, draw from leather -- or Kydex as the case may be -- and the gun will be on target with sights aligned when I open my eyes. With their steeper grip-angle, the Glocks invariably point high above the target.

Many shooters agree with you, including some on the SASS wire. Still, for a novice or one who has never become used to the 1911, the Glock is very easy to learn, especially for women and I often recommend Glocks to them as their first or only handgun.

As for the rest of your reasoned, researched, well-structured, historically accurate, and comprehensive post, I can only agree; especially with your closing statement, which, after all, sums it all up quite concisely.

Regardless of which one you choose, the three most important factors are shot placement, shot placement, and shot placement.
Ken V.

If I miss with a .454 Casull or a .45-70 Gov., then all I've done is make a loud noise and some breeze! (I can do that with Mexican food and leave the firearm at home!) ;)

[law dawg]

Agent Mireles fired four or five rounds of 00-buck at Platt hitting him once . . . in the feet. It seems that Agent Mireles did end the shootout, but he did so with his 38 Special revolver.
The shotgun got everyone down. He aggressively attacked the threat, putting them on the defensive. Once the shotgun was was done you're right, he finished it with the wheelgun.

I would imagine that Platt and Matix were also in an adrenalized state, and they were out-numbered . . . four to one. They killed two FBI agents and wounded five others before they were finally "stopped." Did they have better training than the FBI?
Not training, experience. They had done some real shooting before. They also trained plinking cans and what not, but they had been doing highly adrenalized bank robberies for some time prior to this. Exposure to adrenaline gives you a resistance to it, allowing better processing.

Here is a pretty good description - http://www.thegunzone.com/11april86.html

importance[/i] of it.

And we have been through all this before. You mention punching holes in paper . . . well, if they can't even hit the paper, tactical and scenario training isn't going to help them much.

Ken V.
You're right, of course. But JUST punching holes is also not enough. Good fundamental training, but just the fundamentals of shooting, not fundamentals of shooting in a gun fight.

That said, the importance of well-placed shots cannot be over-estimated.

Also looks like we went to the same source on line....;) A supervisor (ex-FBI) in my office was good friends with one of the surviving officers, I can't remember which. He's talked about it a couple of times.

[Ken Valentine]

I know, didn't mean to say different. The trigger takes getting used to. The trigger on my Kahr is actually much better.

And even that could probably be improved with a little judicious stoning. And I'm thinking it's the same with a Glock.

for a novice or one who has never become used to the 1911, the Glock is very easy to learn, especially for women and I often recommend Glocks to them as their first or only handgun.

That's fine as long as they are taught to keep their finger off the trigger until they have their sights lined up on the target. Too many cops wind up shooting themselves because they don't practise this simple technique, and that's why Joe Cominolli invented an external safety for the Glock.

If I miss with a .454 Casull or a .45-70 Gov., then all I've done is make a loud noise and some breeze! (I can do that with Mexican food and leave the firearm at home!) ;)

If you miss with anything, it's just a loud noise and a breeze. And as an aside, "45-70 Government" is kind of redundant. Originally, the cartridge was called the 45 Government. Later it came to be called the 45-70. It's equivalent to calling Winchesters cartridge a "44-40 WCF." Originally, it was called 44WCF, (Winchester Center Fire) and later it came to be called the 44-40, it doesn't need to be called both.

Granted, a lot of people do call it the 45-70 government, and Starline even stamps their brass 45-70 GOVT, but it's really not necessary. 45-70 or 45 government -- calling it both is just excess verbiage.

Now, it's your job to correct everybody else. :D

Ken V.

[Ken Valentine]

You're right, of course. But JUST punching holes is also not enough. Good fundamental training, but just the fundamentals of shooting, not fundamentals of shooting in a gun fight.

For the record, I have never said that just punching holes was enough. But shooting skills are just as necessary as tactical skills. They're both necessary.

Ken V.

[law dawg]

For the record, I have never said that just punching holes was enough. But shooting skills are just as necessary as tactical skills. They're both necessary.

Ken V.
I was speaking generally, not at anything you had said.

I concentrate on having a good, solid set of shooting skills and then being able to use them tactically. I have a limited amount of time to spend between shooting, CQB, DT and then having a life in there somewhere......;) What I have seen most is great shooters suffer incredible degradation of their skills when put in an adrenalized state.

Look at the evidence - most LEOs are decent shots. Not always great, but they have to qualify. They have the skill set. But as soon as they're put in a real life-or-death situation, most of the shootings show them spraying and praying. What happened to their skills? They didn't lose them between their last qual. They just don't know what happens to their body in such a situation and haven't trained against it.

I never want to be that guy.

[fpw]

I was speaking generally, not at anything you had said.

I concentrate on having a good, solid set of shooting skills and then being able to use them tactically. I have a limited amount of time to spend between shooting, CQB, DT and then having a life in there somewhere......;) What I have seen most is great shooters suffer incredible degradation of their skills when put in an adrenalized state.

Look at the evidence - most LEOs are decent shots. Not always great, but they have to qualify. They have the skill set. But as soon as they're put in a real life-or-death situation, most of the shootings show them spraying and praying. What happened to their skills? They didn't lose them between their last qual. They just don't know what happens to their body in such a situation and haven't trained against it.

I never want to be that guy.

"Look son, being a good shot, being quick with a pistol, that don't do no harm, but it don't mean much next to being cool-headed. A man who will keep his head and not get rattled under fire, like as not, he'll kill ya. It ain't so easy to shoot a man anyhow, especially if the son-of-a-bitch is shootin' back at you." Little Bill Daggett: in Unforgiven.

[law dawg]

"Look son, being a good shot, being quick with a pistol, that don't do no harm, but it don't mean much next to being cool-headed. A man who will keep his head and not get rattled under fire, like as not, he'll kill ya. It ain't so easy to shoot a man anyhow, especially if the son-of-a-bitch is shootin' back at you." Little Bill Daggett: in Unforgiven.
Great quote. Hell, great movie for that matter.

[KRW]

Great quote. Hell, great movie for that matter.

Come on Law Dawg, who are you trying to kiss up too? FPW or Clint Eastwood?:D

[law dawg]

Come on Law Dawg, who are you trying to kiss up too? FPW or Clint Eastwood?:D
Yes? ;)

[KRW]

Yes? ;)


Whoever will listen, gotcha!:cool:

[T-Bone]

I like the 9 for one reason: They're cheap to shoot when you want to throw out alot of lead. (Same reason I use .38s in my .357)

For an actual firearm to be used though, 45 ACP all the way.

[law dawg]

I like the 9 for one reason: They're cheap to shoot when you want to throw out alot of lead. (Same reason I use .38s in my .357)

For an actual firearm to be used though, 45 ACP all the way.
I like the 45 as a round, just don't like the government model, as I don't like anything really with a safety. Its just a training issue - I've never trained to fire with a "cock and lock" mechanism. If I pulled my pistol cocked and locked or something that needed to be manually cocked I'd be screwed. I would be pulling a non-responsive trigger, which would end up with me being shot, most likely.

[Ken Valentine]

I like the 45 as a round, just don't like the government model, as I don't like anything really with a safety.

I'm having a little trouble understanding what you're talking about here. I've never seen a handgun -- especially an auto-loader -- that didn't have some kind of safety mechanism. Even the Glock models have a trigger block. Even modern revolvers have hammer blocks built into them

Its just a training issue - I've never trained to fire with a "cock and lock" mechanism.

Now you've got me really curious. What kind of handguns have you trained with? Because the only handguns -- in the auto-loading classification that is -- which don't have some sort of external lock mechanism are Glocks, and even they have a trigger block . . . which is disengaged when you place your finger on the trigger.

The 1911 model has two "safeties," a grip safety which blocks rearward movement of the trigger -- and is disengaged when you grip the gun -- and a hammer-block safety which is disengaged by downward pressure of the thumb on the right hand (although there are accessory "ambidextrous" safeties available for lefties, and "low-mount" safeties for right-handers who prefer them.) A great many people who shoot the 1911 use the thumb safety as a sort of thumb-rest -- they just press down with the thumb and leave their thumb resting on the safety . . . it also helps to steady the gun in the hand (like those target grips you often see with the thumb flare on the left side) and the act of pressing down with the thumb helps to reduce muzzle rise slightly.

If I pulled my pistol cocked and locked or something that needed to be manually cocked I'd be screwed.

The only hand guns I'm familiar with that "need" to be manually cocked are single action revolvers . . . "cowboy" guns.

I would be pulling a non-responsive trigger, which would end up with me being shot, most likely.

All it takes is a downward press of the thumb, and that is very easy to learn.

If I were in your shoes, I'd try to become as comfortable with as many different types of handguns as possible. That doesn't necessarily mean that I'd spend most of my training time with something other than what I'd be using on duty, it means that I'd want to be as familiar with as many different types of guns as possible, should I need to grab for something other than what I normally use . . . and know intimately how it works.

Ken V.

[Ken Valentine]

I like the 9 for one reason: They're cheap to shoot when you want to throw out alot of lead. (Same reason I use .38s in my .357)

For an actual firearm to be used though, 45 ACP all the way.

If you practise with 9mm and 38's, you're placing yourself at a disadvantage.

Compared to the 45 ACP, they have significantly lower recoil, and it is this recoil which you have to get used to, and become intimately familiar, with if you plan to use the 45 in actual defense.

This is the major reason I shoot reloads, and load them really hot. The advantage to this is that if/when I use self-defense rounds, they will have lower recoil than what I practise with. Think of it as practising with 44 Mag, when you intend to use 357 Mag. The 357 would be much easier to handle.

Ken V.

[T-Bone]

If you practice with 9mm and 38's, you're placing yourself at a disadvantage.

Compared to the 45 ACP, they have significantly lower recoil, and it is this recoil which you have to get used to, and become intimately familiar, with if you plan to use the 45 in actual defense.

This is the major reason I shoot reloads, and load them really hot. The advantage to this is that if/when I use self-defense rounds, they will have lower recoil than what I practice with. Think of it as practicing with 44 Mag, when you intend to use 357 Mag. The 357 would be much easier to handle.

Ken V.

I practice with my .45. I shoot with the same bullet weight as self defense rounds. Just like my big game rifles. I use cheap PSP bullets to practice, but ensure they have very similar velocities to the ballistic tips I use when actually hunting.

There's just some days I feel like going through four or five boxes.

[Ken Valentine]

I practice with my .45. I shoot with the same bullet weight as self defense rounds. Just like my big game rifles. I use cheap PSP bullets to practice, but ensure they have very similar velocities to the ballistic tips I use when actually hunting.

There's just some days I feel like going through four or five boxes.

Do you reload?

The best prices I've seen for factory 45 ACP ammo is around $350 dollars /1,000 rounds. Mind you I cast my own bullets, but I can reload 1,000 rounds of 45 ACP for less than $40 dollars. And I can do it in less than six hours -- which includes casting, and lube-resizing the bullets. This makes my labor worth more than $50 dollars an hour.

Something to think about if you don't do it already.

Ken V.

[law dawg]

I'm having a little trouble understanding what you're talking about here. I've never seen a handgun -- especially an auto-loader -- that didn't have some kind of safety mechanism. Even the Glock models have a trigger block. Even modern revolvers have hammer blocks built into them
I have carried the Ruger SP-101, the Smith 586 (I think), the Berreta 96D and the Sig Sauer P229. None have an external safety. The Mp-5, M-16 and M4 all did, but they are obviously not sidearms.....;)

Now you've got me really curious. What kind of handguns have you trained with? Because the only handguns -- in the auto-loading classification that is -- which don't have some sort of external lock mechanism are Glocks, and even they have a trigger block . . . which is disengaged when you place your finger on the trigger.
No, none of the ones I carried had a safety. Regardless of whether they did or not, though, I wouldn't use it. When I pull a pistol I need it *right freaking now*. Taking time to disengage a safety is too long, not to mention hitting that little bitty button in the shit and adrenaline of combat is difficult (fine motor skill).

]QUOTE]If I were in your shoes, I'd try to become as comfortable with as many different types of handguns as possible. That doesn't necessarily mean that I'd spend most of my training time with something other than what I'd be using on duty, it means that I'd want to be as familiar with as many different types of guns as possible, should I need to grab for something other than what I normally use . . . and know intimately how it works.

Ken V.[/QUOTE]
Absolutely. I do that, I just don't practice using it from the draw or the like. Picking one up on the fly or while moving and shooting, etc. is different. Its not the same as having to clear leather and go to work. What I'm talking about is the situation breaking bad and having to pull a pistol. In that instance you need all your muscle memory trained in one way. Same manner of carry (position, one of RJs biggest weaknesses IMO. If something goes bad and you reach for your gun you are going to reach where you train. If you use three different carry methods (ankle, shoulder, SOB, etc) then who knows where you'll reach...), same manner of havin the pistol in battery, etc.

Standardization is the key. Do it the same way every time. Or at least that's what works for me...

[Ken Valentine]

I have carried the Ruger SP-101, the Smith 586 (I think), the Berreta 96D and the Sig Sauer P229. None have an external safety. The Mp-5, M-16 and M4 all did, but they are obviously not sidearms.....;)

Okay . . . I can see that we're not quite speaking the same language here.

The Ruger and Smith both have built in safeties, Or at least that's how I think of them. The Smiths have a rebound block inside which -- when the trigger is released, after firing a round-- pushes the hammer back so that the firing can't contact the primer even if the hammer is smacked with a mallet. It also has a funny-looking device which (again when the trigger is released) slides up between the hammer and the frame, physically blocking the hammer from moving any farther forward.

The Ruger has a "transfer bar" which moves up when the trigger is pulled, and slips into place in front of the firing pin. So the hammer actually hits the transfer bar and not the firing pin. When the trigger is released, the transfer bar slides down and the hammer rests against the frame, out of reach of the firing pin.

All of the auto-loaders; the Smith, Beretta, and the Sig, are double-action first-shot, and have what I think of as being a safety/decocker. Each of them -- in their own way -- has a thumb safety which also drops the hammer when activated.

So! You're used to a double action first shot with auto-loaders and having the rest of the shots being single action. Now I understand what you're talking about.

What we have here is a difference in taste.

Personally, I don't like having a long, heavy trigger pull on the first shot and having the rest being short and light. Although I do have and regularly shoot double-action-first-shot auto-loaders, I've never really grown comfortable with the transition from long-heavy, to short-light.

In competition -- and I'm sure with you too -- the first shot is generally the most important shot. Which is why I want the first trigger pull to be as short and crisp as all the others. In fact, when I was using a Smith & Wesson Model 39-type, the first thing I did to it was to modify it so that the first shot was single action, and to render the magazine disconnect inoperative. The latter was merely a nuisance.

In that configuration, I could flick off the safety/decocker (which no longer decocked) and have a single action first shot. I'd do the same thing with the Beretta if it wasn't against IDPA rules for that class.

With the 1911, it's just a down-press of the thumb when you're lining up your sights. With the Smith and Beretta, you flick your thumb upwards.


No, none of the ones I carried had a safety. Regardless of whether they did or not, though, I wouldn't use it. When I pull a pistol I need it *right freaking now*. Taking time to disengage a safety is too long, not to mention hitting that little bitty button in the shit and adrenaline of combat is difficult (fine motor skill).

Actually, it has been proven that flicking off a thumb safety is faster than having a double action first shot. Makes that first shot more accurate too.

Adrenaline notwithstanding.

Just for grins, you might find it interesting to try the Para-Ordinance LDA (Light Double Action.) It's a "widebody" 45 ACP (although it's available in 40 S&W as well) that has a long-but-light double action trigger, and all the trigger pulls are the same. It has a thumb safety like the 1911, but you don't have to actually use it, you can leave it off safe with no problem. Furthermore, the hammer is flat to the rear of the slide -- there's no hammer spur to catch on your clothing.

It's not a double action in the true sense of the word, what it does is have a sort of two piece hammer. The internal part of the hammer cocks single action, and the external part of the hammer stays down when the slide returns to battery. The first of the long (but light) trigger pull draws the outside portion of the hammer back until it's in full-cock position whereupon your trigger mechanism contacts the sear, and you press a little harder to fire it.




Absolutely. I do that, I just don't practice using it from the draw or the like. Picking one up on the fly or while moving and shooting, etc. is different.

That's what I was referring to.

Its not the same as having to clear leather and go to work. What I'm talking about is the situation breaking bad and having to pull a pistol. In that instance you need all your muscle memory trained in one way. Same manner of carry (position, one of RJs biggest weaknesses IMO. If something goes bad and you reach for your gun you are going to reach where you train. If you use three different carry methods (ankle, shoulder, SOB, etc) then who knows where you'll reach...), same manner of havin the pistol in battery, etc.

Standardization is the key. Do it the same way every time. Or at least that's what works for me...

I understand. But even then it's difficult to get the gun into exactly the same position every time. What works for me is to do a hundred practise draws after I put the holster on before a match . . . or practise. It also helps to reinforce that already existing muscle memory.

Ken V.

[tooleman]

Went to my 40th high school reunion over the weekend (40 YEARS! Oy!) and had a long talk with a classmate who's been in the FBI for 30-35 years. He was very down on the 9mm round. He swears my the .40 caliber. He was so adamant and made such a good case, I'm thinking of switching Jack to the .40.

I know you guys have touted the .40 over the 9mm before, but give me a few more deatails to help me make up Jack's mind..

I'd like to suggest a CZ 75 with a 25 round Mag (.9mm). It's a simple case of more is better, and to pre-empt Ken V's, long and arduos dissertation: It has nothing to do with ballistics or opinion, its about firing 25 times in rapid suceession and the chance of success it affords the shooter.

[Ken Valentine]

I'd like to suggest a CZ 75 with a 25 round Mag (.9mm). It's a simple case of more is better, and to pre-empt Ken V's, long and arduos dissertation: It has nothing to do with ballistics or opinion, its about firing 25 times in rapid suceession and the chance of success it affords the shooter.

Spray and pray?

Ken V.

[law dawg]

Okay . . . I can see that we're not quite speaking the same language here.

The Ruger and Smith both have built in safeties, Or at least that's how I think of them. The Smiths have a rebound block inside which -- when the trigger is released, after firing a round-- pushes the hammer back so that the firing can't contact the primer even if the hammer is smacked with a mallet. It also has a funny-looking device which (again when the trigger is released) slides up between the hammer and the frame, physically blocking the hammer from moving any farther forward.

The Ruger has a "transfer bar" which moves up when the trigger is pulled, and slips into place in front of the firing pin. So the hammer actually hits the transfer bar and not the firing pin. When the trigger is released, the transfer bar slides down and the hammer rests against the frame, out of reach of the firing pin.

All of the auto-loaders; the Smith, Beretta, and the Sig, are double-action first-shot, and have what I think of as being a safety/decocker. Each of them -- in their own way -- has a thumb safety which also drops the hammer when activated.

So! You're used to a double action first shot with auto-loaders and having the rest of the shots being single action. Now I understand what you're talking about.

What we have here is a difference in taste.
Its not even so much a difference in taste at this point, its training. I've been shooting this way for 15 years now. I'd have to unlearn a lot to switch to another carry style now.

And thanks for the explanation. Like I said, I'm not a technical gunnie. They're just tools to me. I guess I'm like a race car driver - I can drive pretty good but most of my techincal knowledge stops past the gas pedal....;) I was referring to a specific external safety only. A button you push or click to now allow the trigger to pull.

Actually, it has been proven that flicking off a thumb safety is faster than having a double action first shot. Makes that first shot more accurate too.

Adrenaline notwithstanding.
I don't doubt it, just I have so much training in the configuration I use now and that is the issued firearm. There is no other option for carry, so any other configuration is a moot point anyway. :(

I understand. But even then it's difficult to get the gun into exactly the same position every time. What works for me is to do a hundred practise draws after I put the holster on before a match . . . or practise. It also helps to reinforce that already existing muscle memory.

Ken V.
Excellent!

[tooleman]

Spray and pray?

Ken V.

Spray and pray? Sure; if the shooter is too afraid to keep his or her eyes open or is completely inept. A high capacity magazine in the hands of a moderately competent shooter with nerve, who’ll keep his or her head in a gun fight, has a devastating advantage. In the hands of an individual like Jack it is just deadly plain and simple.

[law dawg]

Spray and pray? Sure; if the shooter is too afraid to keep his or her eyes open or is completely inept. A high capacity magazine in the hands of a moderately competent shooter with nerve, who’ll keep his or her head in a gun fight, has a devastating advantage. In the hands of an individual like Jack it is just deadly plain and simple.
What about a backstop?

[Ken Valentine]

A high capacity magazine in the hands of a moderately competent shooter with nerve, who’ll keep his or her head in a gun fight, has a devastating advantage.

If he truly has nerve and can keep his head, he doesn't need 25 rounds -- unless he's attacked by 12 people.

In the hands of an individual like Jack it is just deadly plain and simple.

Unlike your hypothetical individual, Jack knows how to reload.

Ken V.

[tooleman]

If he truly has nerve and can keep his head, he doesn't need 25 rounds -- unless he's attacked by 12 people.



Unlike your hypothetical individual, Jack knows how to reload.

Ken V.
Whatever...........

[Ken Valentine]

Whatever...........

If you think high capacity is the answer, then go right ahead.

For me, it's speed and accuracy.

Ken V.

[Ken Valentine]

What about a backstop?

If you mean knowing what's behind your target . . . you betcha!

Ken V.

[mitch]

I have a stupid question. I was under the impression that the slower a bullet moves, the more damage it does to a target because, rather than going straight through, it would tend to tumble and deform once it hit its target. However, my knowledge of ballistics is rudimentary. Can someone clear this up?

[Ken Valentine]

I have a stupid question. I was under the impression that the slower a bullet moves, the more damage it does to a target because, rather than going straight through, it would tend to tumble and deform once it hit its target. However, my knowledge of ballistics is rudimentary. Can someone clear this up?

It's not a stupid question, but the answer is really involved.

The tendency of a bullet to tumble depends for the most part on how well it's gyroscopically stabilized. This stabilization depends on how fast it is spun by the rifling in the barrel. A slow bullet with a high rate of spin will be more stable -- have less tendency to tumble -- than a fast bullet with a low rate of spin.

There are other factors involved as well:

How the bullet is constructed.

The shape of the bullet.

The length to diameter ratio of the bullet.

Lots of things.

You mention deformation. That depends on the construction of the bullet. Some bullets have thick jackets which resist deformation, and others have very thin jackets and are easily deformed. That's jacketed bullets.

How well cast bullets deform -- or resist deformation -- depends on how hard an alloy the bullet is cast from.

It's late, I'm tired, and I'm starting to ramble.

I'll see if I can give you a better answer later.

Ken V.

[law dawg]

I have a stupid question. I was under the impression that the slower a bullet moves, the more damage it does to a target because, rather than going straight through, it would tend to tumble and deform once it hit its target. However, my knowledge of ballistics is rudimentary. Can someone clear this up?
Well, remember physics : power = massXspeed

If you lower one you have to raise another. Damage is also something you really shouldn't pursue. What you're looking for isn't damage per se, but stopping power.

The bad guy dying three days later doens't do you much good. Stopping him instantly, however, regardless of whether he lives or dies, is much better.

[mitch]

thanks to Ken V. and law dawg for clearing that up