Question for the Gunnies: Backup

[fpw]

I've started writing the next Jack (working title: INFERNAL) and came into a situation (not in the outline) where Jack has to ditch his AMT .380 backup.

Any suggestions for a replacement? (Remember, it's got to fit in an ankle holster.)

[Sam]

Came across a site listing a couple of guns that may fit your taste. If you want to read about them here is the addy... http://www30.brinkster.com/daver120/handguns.htm

One is the Glock model 26. It's a 9mm and holds 11 in the clip or a pre-ban clip of 13. Uses 9x19 Luger ammo

The other, and maybe the more fitting to the old Semmerling, is another Glock, model 36. It's a full power .45 cal. with 7 round clip of ACP ammo. Mainly used as a waistband carry but can work with ankle holster as well.

I'm not a gunnie but just thought I'd try to help. Hope these may be of inspiration.
Sam

[Biggles]

I've started writing the next Jack (working title: INFERNAL) and came into a situation (not in the outline) where Jack has to ditch his AMT .380 backup.

Any suggestions for a replacement? (Remember, it's got to fit in an ankle holster.)

Paul,

I know Ken and I will disagree on this one, because he favors .45 ACP over 9mm, but I see a couple good choices. One is the KelTec P-11, a light, small 9mm that holds 10+1 rounds and can accommodate hi-cap mags. It's designed to take the S&W 659, etc. mags. It's DAO, but I have one and the trigger weight is light for DAO, about 9 lbs. It also has a nice optional feature: a metal spring clip that attaches to the right side of the frame that allows you to carry IWB without a holster, which I have done many times. It also fits into an ankle holster. The P11 may be the most "size efficient" pistol made. With a locked breach, you can fire hot CorBon loads and dispense with having to use frangibles to increase wound ballistics as you do know with a .380.

I think the smallest Glock 9mm is still a bit larger than the P11, but it would have the advantage of accepting mags from his G19. It might be a bit chunkier and more noticeable in an ankle holster.

If you want to stick with an even smaller gun (and calibre) than 9mm, the KelTec P-3AT is a .380 like the AMT, but much smaller, lighter, and with a lighter trigger.

I will either attach info about the KelTecs (if I figure out how) or send it via email to you.

[Biggles]

Paul,

I know Ken and I will disagree on this one, because he favors .45 ACP over 9mm, but I see a couple good choices. One is the KelTec P-11, a light, small 9mm that holds 10+1 rounds and can accommodate hi-cap mags. It's designed to take the S&W 659, etc. mags. It's DAO, but I have one and the trigger weight is light for DAO, about 9 lbs. It also has a nice optional feature: a metal spring clip that attaches to the right side of the frame that allows you to carry IWB without a holster, which I have done many times. It also fits into an ankle holster. The P11 may be the most "size efficient" pistol made. With a locked breach, you can fire hot CorBon loads and dispense with having to use frangibles to increase wound ballistics as you do know with a .380.

I think the smallest Glock 9mm is still a bit larger than the P11, but it would have the advantage of accepting mags from his G19. It might be a bit chunkier and more noticeable in an ankle holster.

If you want to stick with an even smaller gun (and calibre) than 9mm, the KelTec P-3AT is a .380 like the AMT, but much smaller, lighter, and with a lighter trigger.

I will either attach info about the KelTecs (if I figure out how) or send it via email to you.

Follow-up:

I checked the info at the link previously posted for the Glock 26 and compared it for the KelTec P11:

P11:
5.6"L x 4.3"H x 1" W; 14 oz. weight empty; 9 lbs. trigger weight

G26:
6.29"L x 4.17"H x 1.18"W; 19.75 oz. empty; 5.5 lbs. trigger weight

I think the P11 has the advantage in dimensions and weight (as well as aforementioned carry option in waistband). The Glock has the advantage in having the same action as the Glock 19 Jack carries as primary weapon and ability to use G19 mags as spares.

[Ken Valentine]

Paul,

I know Ken and I will disagree on this one, because he favors .45 ACP over 9mm, but I see a couple good choices.

Not exactly Biggles. For a "main" gun, yes I prefer a .45 ACP. But for a back-up I'll go as far down as a .380 ACP. Although I'd prefer either a 9mm or .38 special. My choice in ammo for the .380 and 9mm would be Eldorado Starfire. In .38 Spl., Winchester Silvertip +P.


One is the KelTec P-11, a light, small 9mm that holds 10+1 rounds and can accommodate hi-cap mags. It's designed to take the S&W 659, etc. mags. It's DAO, but I have one and the trigger weight is light for DAO, about 9 lbs. It also has a nice optional feature: a metal spring clip that attaches to the right side of the frame that allows you to carry IWB without a holster, which I have done many times. It also fits into an ankle holster. The P11 may be the most "size efficient" pistol made. With a locked breach, you can fire hot CorBon loads and dispense with having to use frangibles to increase wound ballistics as you do know with a .380.

The Kel-Tec P-40 also sounds intriguing. It's similar to the P-11 but is chambered for the .40 S&W. Capacity is 9+1. It weighs about two ounces more than the P-11 (16 vs. 14 oz.'s.) For only 25-dollars more, why not?
(The .40 S&W ammo itself is heavier though . . . but not much.)
Nice that the P-11 can accommodate the S&W 59 Series Magazine's, although they would stick out below the butt of the grip by more than 1-1/2 inches . . . the over-all length if the 59's mag is nearly five inches. Not something you would want in an ankle holster, as it is both visible and snagable. If the trigger is really nine pounds, then that is excellent! My Walthers have a double action first shot of about ten pounds . . . although it is silky smooth. And the rest of the shots are a very smooth 5 pounds.


If you want to stick with an even smaller gun (and calibre) than 9mm, the KelTec P-3AT is a .380 like the AMT, but much smaller, lighter, and with a lighter trigger.


Yes, the AMT back-up has a truly horrible trigger. The one's I worked on felt like you were dragging a stick through gravel. Which for me is equivalent to fingernails on a blackboard.
I normally wouldn't recommend a gun that I either don't already own, or haven't worked on. But the Kel-Tec does sound interesting.

Good choice Biggles.

Ken V.

[Tim Hatch]

You guys scare me. :D

[Biggles]

You guys scare me. :D

That's what you say now, but if we were sitting having coffee in a cyber cafe and several heavily armed space aliens walked in with blasters determined to abduct Muffy (your poodle) and make her their queen, whom would you rather have there to defend you, Janet Reno or Ken and me (although Janet could probably nail a couple with her purse before you were tractor-beamed up to the mother ship).

...On second thought, sometimes I scare myself, but for entirely different reasons. :D

[Tim Hatch]

That's what you say now, but if we were sitting having coffee in a cyber cafe and several heavily armed space aliens walked in with blasters determined to abduct Muffy (your poodle) and make her their queen, whom would you rather have there to defend you, Janet Reno or Ken and me (although Janet could probably nail a couple with her purse before you were tractor-beamed up to the mother ship).

...On second thought, sometimes I scare myself, but for entirely different reasons. :D

I'd definitely take you guys over Reno. But if the aliens showed, it must be to take Janet back to her home planet.

How did you know about the poodle???
:D

[Ken Valentine]

That's what you say now, but if we were sitting having coffee in a cyber cafe and several heavily armed space aliens walked in with blasters determined to abduct Muffy (your poodle) and make her their queen, whom would you rather have there to defend you, Janet Reno or Ken and me (although Janet could probably nail a couple with her purse before you were tractor-beamed up to the mother ship).

...On second thought, sometimes I scare myself, but for entirely different reasons. :D

Personally, I'd rather have Janet Reno at my side. One glance at "her," would send them screaming off into the nether regions of the galaxy -- come to think of it, one glance at "her" and I'd probably join them.

Ken V.

[fpw]

Sounds like a 9mm Kel-Tec P-11 is the way to go. The Eldorado Starfires sound like a good round.

Thanks, guys

[Biggles]

Sounds like a 9mm Kel-Tec P-11 is the way to go. The Eldorado Starfires sound like a good round.

Thanks, guys

Our pleasure. We insist on Jack being well-armed at all times!

[Ken Valentine]

Sounds like a 9mm Kel-Tec P-11 is the way to go. The Eldorado Starfires sound like a good round.

Thanks, guys

You're welcome, although I'm just giving confirmation to Biggles recommendation. I'll show you a Starfire round when you come to Burbank next month.

Ken V.

[Ken Valentine]

Our pleasure. We insist on Jack being well-armed at all times!

And not only Jack!

Ken V.

[Biggles]

You're welcome, although I'm just giving confirmation to Biggles recommendation. I'll show you a Starfire round when you come to Burbank next month.

Ken V.

And if Paul comes to the Hoosier state, I'll be happy to let him try out my P-11, with some 115 grain CorBon rounds. :cool:

[Biggles]

And not only Jack!

Ken V.

I've been reading "The Probability Broach". I want to move to the North American Confederacy! I think I'd be right at home. Sort of brings new meaning to Outback's slogan: "no rules, just right".

[Ken Valentine]

I've been reading "The Probability Broach". I want to move to the North American Confederacy! I think I'd be right at home. Sort of brings new meaning to Outback's slogan: "no rules, just right".

Just one rule actually. No one has a right to initiate the use of force.

As far as moving to the NAC is concerned, I can only say:

MEEEEEEEEEE TOOOOOOOOO!

The next book in the series is THE VENUS BELT. Currently out of print, it's available through abebooks.com.

Ken V.

[Ken Valentine]

And if Paul comes to the Hoosier state, I'll be happy to let him try out my P-11, with some 115 grain CorBon rounds. :cool:

I'll bet he would enjoy that ... time permitting.

If you and I were ever able to get together -- with our guns -- I think we would have an absolute (you will pardon the expression) BLAST!

Ken V.

[Biggles]

I'll bet he would enjoy that ... time permitting.

If you and I were ever able to get together -- with our guns -- I think we would have an absolute (you will pardon the expression) BLAST!

Ken V.

We would have to go to a DNR preserve with a rifle range so we could take our long arms. FPW, are you in?

[Biggles]

I just read a story online about the NRA beginning its news operations today. For Second Amendment supporters, the address is www.nranews.com. For those of you who think only the government should have arms, maybe the info will provide food for thought.

[Ken Valentine]

We would have to go to a DNR preserve with a rifle range so we could take our long arms. FPW, are you in?

DNR -- Do Not Resuscitate?

Ken V.

[Ken Valentine]

I just read a story online about the NRA beginning its news operations today. For Second Amendment supporters, the address is www.nranews.com. For those of you who think only the government should have arms, maybe the info will provide food for thought.

I have no use for an organization that claims to be pro second amendment and does things like endorse and actually campaign for the Gun Control Act of 1968. With friends like the NRA, we really don't need enemies.



Ken V.

[Biggles]

I have no use for an organization that claims to be pro second amendment and does things like endorse and actually campaign for the Gun Control Act of 1968. With friends like the NRA, we really don't need enemies.



Ken V.


I think the NRA has learned its lesson there Ken. Many people have been seduced by "reasonable" limitations on their rights, myself included. As I've gotten older and wiser, I now realize that there is NO reasonable limitation upon my individual rights as long as my exercise thereof does not interfere with the rights of others. It took me over 40 years to become a complete libertarian.

The NRA is drawing a line now. Granted, they should have drawn it 30 years ago, but we'll take what we can get.

[Ken Valentine]

The NRA is drawing a line now. Granted, they should have drawn it 30 years ago, but we'll take what we can get.

Thirty years ago? Try seventy years ago!
They have been stabbing gun owners in the back for at least that long.

http://keepandbeararms.com/NRA/NFA.asp

One little "feel good" piece of crapaganda is not going to change my mind. They've done this sort of thing before. Like in 1995, when they sat down with Hand Gun Control,Inc., and wrote Act 17, a gun law that was passed in Pennsylvania late that year -- and lied to their members about what was IN the law. They also endorsed the Brady Bill,* wrote the Maryland hand gun ban, and came up with their own unconstitutional National Instant Check System.

In the most sordid sense of the word, the NRA is a pack of WHORE'S-- you give them your money and they f**k you!

http://www.libertyartworx.com/bushypromise.html

So, the question in my mind is, have they truly decided to stop betraying gun owners and the second amendment? Or is this just one more of their insidious lies? Only time will tell. And for me, it is going to take a LOOOOOOOONG time. They have a lot to make up for.

Ken V. -- Life Member JPFO

*Sarah Brady is a life long Republican, and self proclaimed Conservative.

P.S. Thomas Dodd, the late Senator from Connecticut, didn't "write" the Gun Control Act of 1968 -- he actually copied it from the NAZI weapons law of 1938.

[Jerry]

I seem to have joined a few days late and a dollar short, but one of my favorite small handguns is the Walther PPK 9mm. Then again James Bond may have a corner on the market since its sort of a trade mark with him.

Jerry


Sounds like a 9mm Kel-Tec P-11 is the way to go. The Eldorado Starfires sound like a good round.

Thanks, guys

[Biggles]

I seem to have joined a few days late and a dollar short, but one of my favorite small handguns is the Walther PPK 9mm. Then again James Bond may have a corner on the market since its sort of a trade mark with him.

Jerry


The PPK was only available in .22LR, .25ACP (6.35mm), .32ACP (7.65mm), and .380ACP (9mm Kurz). The "9mm Kurz" is a 9x17 round much less powerful than the 9mm Parabellum or Luger round, which is 9x19. The two extra millimeters of length and wider base on the 9x19 translate into about twice the kinetic energy. A .380 pushes a 95 grain bullet out at a maximum of 1050 fps, whereas the Hornady loading for the 9x19 propels a 95 grain bullet at 1350fps. Corbon produces a 115 grain 9x19 loading at 1350fps. I own a Walther PP and a Hungarian clone of the PPK, and both are quality guns, but 9mm is available in much smaller guns now than used to be the case. 007 has even gone to a 9mm as you will note in the Pearce Brosnan films.

[Ken Valentine]

The PPK was only available in .22LR, .25ACP (6.35mm), .32ACP (7.65mm), and .380ACP (9mm Kurz). The "9mm Kurz" is a 9x17 round much less powerful than the 9mm Parabellum or Luger round, which is 9x19. The two extra millimeters of length and wider base on the 9x19 translate into about twice the kinetic energy. A .380 pushes a 95 grain bullet out at a maximum of 1050 fps, whereas the Hornady loading for the 9x19 propels a 95 grain bullet at 1350fps. Corbon produces a 115 grain 9x19 loading at 1350fps. I own a Walther PP and a Hungarian clone of the PPK, and both are quality guns, but 9mm is available in much smaller guns now than used to be the case. 007 has even gone to a 9mm as you will note in the Pearce Brosnan films.

Originally, Bond used a Beretta in .25 ACP -- possibly a Minx. Later, as shown in the movie Doctor No (?) he was issued a Walther PPK in .32 ACP.
In my collection, I have a PP in .380, A stainless PPK in .380, and a PPK in .32. The Stainless is American made, and the other two are German. Don't shoot them much as -- with my meaty hands -- I tend to get slide bite. But they are all very well made.

My 9mm hand loads have a 125 grain H & G #275 at 1313 fps -- 10-shot average. It's a good versatile round.

Ken V.

[Biggles]

Originally, Bond used a Beretta in .25 ACP -- possibly a Minx. Later, as shown in the movie Doctor No (?) he was issued a Walther PPK in .32 ACP.
In my collection, I have a PP in .380, A stainless PPK in .380, and a PPK in .32. The Stainless is American made, and the other two are German. Don't shoot them much as -- with my meaty hands -- I tend to get slide bite. But they are all very well made.

My 9mm hand loads have a 125 grain H & G #275 at 1313 fps -- 10-shot average. It's a good versatile round.

Ken V.

I had to laugh in Dr. No when they made him turn in a .25 for a .32. I guess he could hunt bigger mice, eh?

[Ken Valentine]

I had to laugh in Dr. No when they made him turn in a .25 for a .32. I guess he could hunt bigger mice, eh?

Vaughn Meiss was shot with a .380. :D

I figure James Bond had a license to startle.

Ken V.

[Bluesman Mike Lindner]

I had to laugh in Dr. No when they made him turn in a .25 for a .32. I guess he could hunt bigger mice, eh?

That brought back a memory of my days at the B&N Sale Annex. When a new hire for my crew would come on board, I'd show them around the place. Our lunchroom (actually the entire basement) was plagued with world-class waterbugs and mice. When a mouse scurried across the floor, I'd explain to the new soul that it was rare to see mice. "Oh, that's unusual, I hope?" they'd ask. "Sure is," I'd say. "Generally the rats eat 'em."

[Biggles]

Vaughn Meiss was shot with a .380. :D

I figure James Bond had a license to startle.

Ken V.

Correction. Vaughn Meiss was tenderized by a Shitload of .380s from a Mac 11 machine pistol. A couple of .380s to center mass would have been survivable.

[Biggles]

That brought back a memory of my days at the B&N Sale Annex. When a new hire for my crew would come on board, I'd show them around the place. Our lunchroom (actually the entire basement) was plagued with world-class waterbugs and mice. When a mouse scurried across the floor, I'd explain to the new soul that it was rare to see mice. "Oh, that's unusual, I hope?" they'd ask. "Sure is," I'd say. "Generally the rats eat 'em."

Because of ricochet, I advise against hunting mice indoors with a pistol; now fishing with a pistol is a different story. :rolleyes:

[Ken Valentine]

Correction. Vaughn Meiss was tenderized by a Shitload of .380s from a Mac 11 machine pistol. A couple of .380s to center mass would have been survivable.

Refering to Win's 9mm Hi-power, Ed says, "What do you use that for, shooting mice?" Win replied, "Meiss was shot with a .380, wise guy."

Who shoots to center of mass? A .380 hardball to the center of the sternum would not be survivable. Shot placement is important in any situation, with small calibers, it is supremely important.

I just remembered, I have another pistol chambered in .380 ACP . . . a Model 51, made by Remington-UMC in 1918. It's a locked, recoiling breech-block, semi-auto, with 7+1 capacity . . . extremely complex mechanism with low felt recoil. The full length grip safety locks out the trigger, and locks the slide in place. It also locks the slide open if it's released with the slide held back . . . awkward. But it has some very nice features you won't find on modern 380's.

Back in those days they didn't have the alloys we now have, but the machinists and engineers of that era were every bit as good as any you would find today . . . many were better.

For an example of brilliant engineering and close tolerance machining, look at a century old Singer sewing machine.

Ken V.

[Ken Valentine]

That brought back a memory of my days at the B&N Sale Annex. When a new hire for my crew would come on board, I'd show them around the place. Our lunchroom (actually the entire basement) was plagued with world-class waterbugs and mice. When a mouse scurried across the floor, I'd explain to the new soul that it was rare to see mice. "Oh, that's unusual, I hope?" they'd ask. "Sure is," I'd say. "Generally the rats eat 'em."

I'd love to have seen the expression their face when you told them that!

Ken V.

[Ken Valentine]

Because of ricochet, I advise against hunting mice indoors with a pistol; now fishing with a pistol is a different story. :rolleyes:

It's ok if you use BB Caps, and wear safety glasses. I've shot scores of rats in the concrete basements of an old business area in Denver. It was almost a part-time job when I was going to college. I was never hit by a ricochet. But I was always conscious of the possibility, so I never made a shot with the wall perpendicular to me.

Ken V.

[Biggles]

It's ok if you use BB Caps, and wear safety glasses. I've shot scores of rats in the concrete basements of an old business area in Denver. It was almost a part-time job when I was going to college. I was never hit by a ricochet. But I was always conscious of the possibility, so I never made a shot with the wall perpendicular to me.

Ken V.

I have concluded that, since Ken always has a reply to any post I submit, I will never surpass his number of posts. I guess I am destined to always be #2 or worse. :(

[Ken Valentine]

I have concluded that, since Ken always has a reply to any post I submit, I will never surpass his number of posts. I guess I am destined to always be #2 or worse. :(

And as you always have a reply to anything I submit, I'm not going to draw ahead either. :p Sew they're!

Ken V.

[Bluesman Mike Lindner]

And as you always have a reply to anything I submit, I'm not going to draw ahead either. :p Sew they're!

Ken V.
Wouldn't it depend on who posted first? Who's replying to whom?

[jimbow8]

Wouldn't it depend on who posted first? Who's replying to whom?
I, however, have no reply to that.

[Ken Valentine]

Wouldn't it depend on who posted first? Who's replying to whom?

Maybe it's a case of who starts the most threads, and who has the last word. Or who spends the most time on the website.

In my case it's, who is the noisiest.

Ken V.

[Blades]

Nobody mentioned Kahr??
Hmm.... :)
Oh well.



Blades

[Ken Valentine]

Nobody mentioned Kahr??
Hmm.... :)
Oh well.


As I said earlier -- I think it was on this thread -- I hesitate to recommend something I don't actually own, or haven't worked on. I've never even seen a Kahr. They aren't terribly popular where I live, and they also aren't used in competition.

Colt's and its clones, Para's, Sig's, Beretta's, Taurus's, Smith & Wessons, Caspian's, STI's, STV's, even the occasional AMT Long Slide or back-up -- I've done fairly extensive work on all of them, very extensive work on some. So the only thing I can say about Kahr's, aside from their scarcity, is that they don't seem to be owned by people who know or care what a good action job can do for a gun.

Ken V.

[Riff]

Yes, the AMT back-up has a truly horrible trigger. The one's I worked on felt like you were dragging a stick through gravel. Which for me is equivalent to fingernails on a blackboard.
I normally wouldn't recommend a gun that I either don't already own, or haven't worked on. But the Kel-Tec does sound interesting.

I used to have a Kel-Tec P40. The trigger's definitely better than the second generation AMT .380 backup. However, I ended up getting rid of the K-T because of a "failure to feed" problem. Seems like I could expect 3-4 in a box of 50. I definitely prefer the first generation AMT .380 backup in single action over both the Kel-Tec and the 2nd generation AMT. Oddly enough the little single action .380 in stainless steel has a snappier recoil than the .40 in polymer.

[Biggles]

[QUOTE=Riff]
I used to have a Kel-Tec P40. The trigger's definitely better than the second generation AMT .380 backup. However, I ended up getting rid of the K-T because of a "failure to feed" problem. Seems like I could expect 3-4 in a box of 50. QUOTE]

Your failure to feed problem is interesting. I have never had a failure to feed, extract, or fire on my P11. I had a Star M43 at one time (their compact 9mm steel framed single-action auto). Very nice piece, but I had a large number of stovepipe jams when I used 115 grain ammo. I tried the 95 grain Hornady 9mm hollowpoints in it, and it functioned perfectly. I think that slide velocity and inertia must have been the problem, and I think that maybe compact pistols are more sensitive to changes in ballistics. I sold my M43 (even though I loved it) when I bought my P11, because I had 10 rounds in a lighter, smaller package than the M43. Plus, I had to carry the M43 "cocked and locked", which is not the case with the P11.

I wonder if switching to a lighter, higher velocity load would have provided better feeding in your P40.

[Ken Valentine]

I used to have a Kel-Tec P40. The trigger's definitely better than the second generation AMT .380 backup. However, I ended up getting rid of the K-T because of a "failure to feed" problem. Seems like I could expect 3-4 in a box of 50. I definitely prefer the first generation AMT .380 backup in single action over both the Kel-Tec and the 2nd generation AMT. Oddly enough the little single action .380 in stainless steel has a snappier recoil than the .40 in polymer.

What kind of feed problem did you have? Sometimes different ammunition will solve the problem, sometimes a slightly weaker recoil spring will do the trick, and sometimes a little gunsmithing is called for. This is one of the major reasons I tend to stick with guns like the Colt's Government Model and its clones. The more common the gun, the more accessories and "custom" parts are available for it. For example, you can get recoil springs for the government model rated from 7-pounds to 28-pounds . . . in one pound increments! (Original is 16-pounds.)

As far as the recoil is concerned, the Kel-Tec has a semi blow-back slide action while the AMT is straight blow-back. A straight blow-back gun will have much sharper felt recoil than a semi blow-back gun. The steel or polymer frame has nothing to do with it. That little bit of extra time it takes a semi blow-back gun to unlock allows the pressure in the barrel to drop, thereby reducing the force of the slide when it moves back and hits the frame. The softest recoiling .380 I have ever fired is my 86-year-old Remington Model 51 which has a fully locking breech-bolt within the slide. Beautiful design, but very expensive to produce.

Ken V.

[Riff]

What kind of feed problem did you have? Sometimes different ammunition will solve the problem, sometimes a slightly weaker recoil spring will do the trick, and sometimes a little gunsmithing is called for. This is one of the major reasons I tend to stick with guns like the Colt's Government Model and its clones. The more common the gun, the more accessories and "custom" parts are available for it. For example, you can get recoil springs for the government model rated from 7-pounds to 28-pounds . . . in one pound increments! (Original is 16-pounds.)

It was a "failure to go into battery" if I remember correctly. That was a few years and several thousand rounds ago. I usually run several different types of ammo through a new gun when I'm going through my "new toy" stage. At that time, I think I was using "Golden Sabres", CCI Blazer, UMC, GoldDots, WinClean, Hydrashock and assorted reloads. Weight ranges 135gr, 155gr. 165gr. and 180gr.(original load specs, before they dropped back on the powder charge) I wasn't interested in the P40 enough to worry about it so I sold it instead. I didn't plan to use it as my primary carry anyway. Just "auditioning" it as a possible part time carry.

.....and I like 20-22lb springs in my 1911 government models.

[Bluesman Mike Lindner]

That's what you say now, but if we were sitting having coffee in a cyber cafe and several heavily armed space aliens walked in with blasters determined to abduct Muffy (your poodle) and make her their queen, whom would you rather have there to defend you, Janet Reno or Ken and me (although Janet could probably nail a couple with her purse before you were tractor-beamed up to the mother ship).

...On second thought, sometimes I scare myself, but for entirely different reasons. :D

After posting off last night, I shambled down to Bull McCabe's Irish Pub to chill my gums with a cold lager. And, as often happens, I got into a conversation. Mary was appalled that I carry a Swiss Army knife, a Buck knife, and a single-edged razor blade in my wallet (just in case. y'unnerstan'). She fancied herself a High Thinker, but couldn't see why an hombre would want to go armed in a nice place like NYC. Well, the discussion got a little heated. After I confided I consider abortion murder, pure and simple, she made a point of leaving my unevolved company. Her boyfriend Eric hung around, though. He asked if he could check out the blades! And of course I obliged. One at a time, naturally.

[Ken Valentine]

It was a "failure to go into battery" if I remember correctly. That was a few years and several thousand rounds ago. I usually run several different types of ammo through a new gun when I'm going through my "new toy" stage. At that time, I think I was using "Golden Sabres", CCI Blazer, UMC, GoldDots, WinClean, Hydrashock and assorted reloads. Weight ranges 135gr, 155gr. 165gr. and 180gr.(original load specs, before they dropped back on the powder charge) I wasn't interested in the P40 enough to worry about it so I sold it instead.


Just for drill, I'd say the problem could stem from one or more of the following:

A) Rough ramp and chamber.

B) Too light a recoil spring. Possibly in combination with too heavy a magazine spring.

C) Feed lips on the magazine converging at the front of the mag. In combination with a heavy mag spring.

D) Too heavy extractor pressure on the rim.

E) A combination of ingredients.



I didn't plan to use it as my primary carry anyway. Just "auditioning" it as a possible part time carry.


Right. That's what this is all about . . . back-up.


.....and I like 20-22lb springs in my 1911 government models.


I use a standard 16-pound spring in my long-slide. (6-1/4 inch barrel) Along with a 200 grain H&G #68 at 900 fps, for best accuracy -- I can fire 7 rounds at 25 yards and cover them with a Quarter. I don't need a heavier recoil spring as the extra weight of the slide and spring plug compensates for it.

On my Commander -- which a friend dubbed my "pimp gun" :D -- I use a 24 pound spring to compensate for the lighter slide weight. It holds the slide in battery just a leetle bit longer. The 900 fps load in the long-slide has a muzzle velocity of 760 in the Commander due to the 2-inch shorter barrel.

Ken V.

[Ken Valentine]

After posting off last night, I shambled down to Bull McCabe's Irish Pub to chill my gums with a cold lager. And, as often happens, I got into a conversation. Mary was appalled that I carry a Swiss Army knife, a Buck knife, and a single-edged razor blade in my wallet (just in case. y'unnerstan'). She fancied herself a High Thinker, but couldn't see why an hombre would want to go armed in a nice place like NYC. Well, the discussion got a little heated. After I confided I consider abortion murder, pure and simple, she made a point of leaving my unevolved company. Her boyfriend Eric hung around, though. He asked if he could check out the blades! And of course I obliged. One at a time, naturally.


I thought "shamble" was what you did going out of a pub. :D

Although I'm not in favor of abortion, I view "anti-abortion" as a form of slavery. As is government funding of abortion.

Good you are taking measures to defend yourself.

Ken V.

[Bluesman Mike Lindner]

I thought "shamble" was what you did going out of a pub. :D

Although I'm not in favor of abortion, I view "anti-abortion" as a form of slavery. As is government funding of abortion.

Good you are taking measures to defend yourself.

Ken V.

No question, the abortion issue is complex. I wouldn't favor outlawing it again, as that wouldn't solve what I see as the underlying problem: creating a general recognition that a fertilized ova is a human being. Very small and undeveloped, but a human being nonetheless. Winning hearts and minds one at a time is the way to go.

I don't carry a gun because it's all-but-impossible to get a license in NYC and I don't consider the risk/benefit ratio of carrying outlaw heat to be in my favor. But I'm never without my blades (except in court on my last bout of jury duty). I consider a good knife and a little idea of how to use it "the edge that gives me the edge." (Though I'd pull the Buck only if I thought I was in a life-threatening situation. Somebody has a weapon out and wants my skinny wallet, they can have it.)

[Biggles]

As far as the recoil is concerned, the Kel-Tec has a semi blow-back slide action while the AMT is straight blow-back. A straight blow-back gun will have much sharper felt recoil than a semi blow-back gun.


Ken V.


I'm pretty sure that the P11 and P40 both have locked breeches. Go to their web site to see a schematic.

[Ken Valentine]

I'm pretty sure that the P11 and P40 both have locked breeches. Go to their web site to see a schematic.

They have what they CALL a locked breech, but a locked breech it ain't. Quasi-locked breech is the best I will give it, and only because it's the same as semi-blow-back -- two ways of saying the same thing.

To be absolutely precise, a true locked breech pistol is one where the action remains in position (locked) throughout the entire firing process, like a single-shot, or break action pistol. The Thompson Center Contender is a good example of this. In rifles, lever action, bolt action, falling block, and rolling block, are examples of manually operated locked breech actions, as are side-by-side, over/under, and pump action shotguns. The M-1 Garand, M-1 Carbine, M-14, M-16/AR-15, and such, are examples of gas operated locked breech actions. The Desert Eagle is a good example of gas operated locked breech action in a pistol. Revolvers are also examples of locked-breech action.

The Kel-Tec is an example of a quasi-locked breech, as the slide and barrel start moving back in a unit the instant the cartridge is fired, and start to seperate after the slide has moved back an eighth of an inch or so, whereupon the barrel drops, stops its rearward motion, and the slide continues the extraction/ejection process. It is not a true locked breech design because the barrel/slide combination are in motion while the bullet is still in the barrel.

Kel-Tec calls it a locked breech for purposes of ... I can't find the word ... I'm looking for the word ... I've found the word ... MARKETING!

Hope this helps.

Ken V.

[Biggles]

They have what they CALL a locked breech, but a locked breech it ain't. Quasi-locked breech is the best I will give it, and only because it's the same as semi-blow-back -- two ways of saying the same thing.

To be absolutely precise, a true locked breech pistol is one where the action remains in position (locked) throughout the entire firing process, like a single-shot, or break action pistol. The Thompson Center Contender is a good example of this. In rifles, lever action, bolt action, falling block, and rolling block, are examples of manually operated locked breech actions, as are side-by-side, over/under, and pump action shotguns. The M-1 Garand, M-1 Carbine, M-14, M-16/AR-15, and such, are examples of gas operated locked breech actions. The Desert Eagle is a good example of gas operated locked breech action in a pistol. Revolvers are also examples of locked-breech action.

The Kel-Tec is an example of a quasi-locked breech, as the slide and barrel start moving back in a unit the instant the cartridge is fired, and start to seperate after the slide has moved back an eighth of an inch or so, whereupon the barrel drops, stops its rearward motion, and the slide continues the extraction/ejection process. It is not a true locked breech design because the barrel/slide combination are in motion while the bullet is still in the barrel.

Kel-Tec calls it a locked breech for purposes of ... I can't find the word ... I'm looking for the word ... I've found the word ... MARKETING!

Hope this helps.

Ken V.

Thanks for defining your terms. By that definition, my only "locked breach" pistols are my .44 Contender and my .44 Desert Eagle. In common usage, I've usually heard pistols described as either blowback or locked breach, but there's no question that a bolt-action or break-open pistol is truly locked-breach.

[Ken Valentine]

Thanks for defining your terms. By that definition, my only "locked breach" pistols are my .44 Contender and my .44 Desert Eagle. In common usage, I've usually heard pistols described as either blowback or locked breach, but there's no question that a bolt-action or break-open pistol is truly locked-breach.

What!?! No revolvers?

Ken V.

[Bastard]

I prefer (and this is more personal taste than anything else) the Bersa Bobbcat. It's a simple .380 semi-auto based on the design of the Walther PPK. I carry one with two pre-ban 9 shot magazines and one in the chamber. The beauty of this baby is that it is inexpensive, simple enough for any handgun user to operate and can be (fairly easily) acquired, sans waiting period, from a shady pawnbroker--in case Jack runs into a scenario which prevents him from contacting Abe. And for those of you thinking "Hmmm, I wonder how that little bugger got his..." I bought mine, LEGALLY, from a reputable gunsmith (Chase Outfitters) in the Orlando area.

Jake

[Biggles]

And for those of you thinking "Hmmm, I wonder how that little bugger got his..." I bought mine, LEGALLY, from a reputable gunsmith (Chase Outfitters) in the Orlando area.

Jake

Sure! ;) But seriously, most of us gunnies couldn't care less whether you are legal or not. We are the wolves, not the sheep.

[Biggles]

What!?! No revolvers?

Ken V.

I own only three revolvers: an old Mdl 36, a Super Blackhawk, and a limited edition Blackhawk in 10mm / .38/40 WCF.

[Ken Valentine]

I own only three revolvers: an old Mdl 36, a Super Blackhawk, and a limited edition Blackhawk in 10mm / .38/40 WCF.

Including cap-and-ball, I've ended up with 14 single action, and 4 double action revolvers, including one I got from a guy who tried to rob me with it. So half my handguns are wheelie guns.

FUN!

Ken V.

[Bastard]

I own only three revolvers: an old Mdl 36, a Super Blackhawk, and a limited edition Blackhawk in 10mm / .38/40 WCF.

I don't own any revolvers as of yet, but my younger brother, Sam, (the med student, for those of you who remember my pre-Marine Corps posts) has a disturbing penchant for revolvers. He doesn't know beans about them, but he's a bloody natural when it comes to firing the buggers...

--Jake

[Ken Valentine]

I don't own any revolvers as of yet, but my younger brother, Sam, (the med student, for those of you who remember my pre-Marine Corps posts) has a disturbing penchant for revolvers. He doesn't know beans about them, but he's a bloody natural when it comes to firing the buggers...

--Jake

What's disturbing about it? :D Wheelie guns are FUN! Actually, they're ALL fun . . . .

Does he shoot in competition? And what does he prefer? Single action? Double action?

Ken V.

[Bastard]

What's disturbing about it? :D Wheelie guns are FUN! Actually, they're ALL fun . . . .

Does he shoot in competition? And what does he prefer? Single action? Double action?

Ken V.

What's disturbing about it is that I have to work very hard to be proficient and when it comes to handguns--revolvers especially--he's got this savant thing going on. Actually it's not so disturbing, cause the combination of him and a six-gun is a beautiful thing. He was definitely born in the wrong century. He seems to prefer double action, but he doesn't shoot competitively... yet.

[Ken Valentine]

What's disturbing about it is that I have to work very hard to be proficient and when it comes to handguns--revolvers especially--he's got this savant thing going on. Actually it's not so disturbing, cause the combination of him and a six-gun is a beautiful thing. He was definately born in the wrong century. He seems to prefer double action, but he doesn't shoot competitively... yet.

You might want to point him in the direction of I.C.O.R.E.. The International Confederation Of Revolver Enthusiasts. These guys have some great matches!

Ken V.

[Bastard]

You might want to point him in the direction of I.C.O.R.E.. The International Confederation Of Revolver Enthusiasts. These guys have some great matches!

Ken V.

Thanx Ken, I'll pass it on to him this weekend.

--Jake

[Biggles]

Sounds like a 9mm Kel-Tec P-11 is the way to go. The Eldorado Starfires sound like a good round.

Thanks, guys

Just last week, I acquired the ultimate backup. Small, light, and easily concealed, the "Pocket Protector" AKA "Puglet in a Pocket", fits easily into a pocket of your favorite cargo shorts, and is legal in all 50 states and the District of Columbia (licenses may be required in some areas). What's more, the "Pocket Protector" is approved for airline travel, and DOES NOT set off metal detectors! Following are two photos showing the "Pocket Protector" holstered and ready for action. In the second photo, you see it as it's ready to be drawn from its holster and deployed.

[Ken Valentine]

Just last week, I acquired the ultimate backup. Small, light, and easily concealed, the "Pocket Protector" AKA "Puglet in a Pocket", fits easily into a pocket of your favorite cargo shorts, and is legal in all 50 states and the District of Columbia (licenses may be required in some areas). What's more, the "Pocket Protector" is approved for airline travel, and DOES NOT set off metal detectors! Following are two photos showing the "Pocket Protector" holstered and ready for action. In the second photo, you see it as it's ready to be drawn from its holster and deployed.

They'll impound it for six months if you ever try to take it to Hawaii.

I'll bet however, that it can lick anybody who gets close enough.

Ken V.

[Biggles]

They'll impound it for six months if you ever try to take it to Hawaii.

I'll bet however, that it can lick anybody who gets close enough.

Ken V.

That Beagle Brigade we saw in Honolulu and Maui when my bride and I were on our honeymoon was adorable. For those who haven't gone to the islands, these are specially trained beagles who walk the airport terminals sniffing for flora (and fauna?) that should not be transported between the islands and the mainland.

BTW, my Charlie licks so fast that I'm concerned she might be full auto vs. semi-auto. She might violate NPA (National Pug Act) 1934 and PCA (Pug Control Act) 1968, for all I know.

[jimbow8]

I didn't know where to put this, so I thought the "gunnie" thread would be appropriate:

http://www.comedycentral.com/mp/play.php?reposid=/multimedia/tds/helms/helms_8142.html

[Biggles]

I didn't know where to put this, so I thought the "gunnie" thread would be appropriate:

http://www.comedycentral.com/mp/play.php?reposid=/multimedia/tds/helms/helms_8142.html

I'm sure glad I can carry concealed in bars here in Indiana!

[SDSwami]

Minnesota now has a law stating that a public building must have a sign posting that it is illegal to carry a firearm on that premise. Everywhere you go, there's a sign on the door saying it's illegal to carry a gun inside.

[Biggles]

Minnesota now has a law stating that a public building must have a sign posting that it is illegal to carry a firearm on that premise. Everywhere you go, there's a sign on the door saying it's illegal to carry a gun inside.

That's the way anti-gun public officials get around state laws. I have no problem with private individuals and businesses deciding not to permit firearms inside (based upon property rights), but all public places and places of public resort (like malls, etc.) should be permissible places to be armed, unless there are specific security concerns. Courtrooms are probably not good places to be armed, for example. I've seen passions flaming too often in court.

[Dean Koontz spoiler]: There's a scene in Odd Thomas that would never have happened if citizens could carry in malls in that jurisdiction. And the restaurant murders in Kileen, TX were unnecessary. I recall that one of the patrons left her pistol in her car because she couldn't carry inside. Here in Indiana, you don't need permits for longarms, nor to possess handguns in your homes or fixed places of business; and carry permits are issued on a "shall issue" basis (you get the permit unless your are disqualified under state law).

[Nietzsche Pops]

What is this?!!! No one recommended a Makarov?!

C'mon.

One of the most reliable handguns in the world. Owners routinely report 0 failures to both fire and eject after 1000's of rounds have been fired through the weapon.

A Soviet designed firearm. (Russians make GOOD GUNS...poor democracies, but good guns). Produced by the Chinese, Soviets, Bulgarians, and the East Germans. Used in every other Steel Shade country from the 1950's to present day.

Solid steel construction (except for the grips, which are plastic with rubber aftermarkets available).

In either .380 or 9x18mm ammo. The 9x18 is a Russian designed caliber. Hovering somewhere in power between a .380 and a 9x19 "regular" 9mm. The surplus ammunition for this gun often incorporates a bi-metal steel jacket around a lead core. (Didn't steel/iron weaken rakoshi?) Arguably improving penetration. Not quite as powerful as the regular 9mm but acceptable when weighed against all the other features of the Makarov.

With a fixed pin barrel design similar to some Walther designs, the Makarov is QUITE capable of taking 100 yard shots and putting them in an area the size of your hand. Making shot placement at closer ranges a snap. (Putting a "hole within a hole" is entirely possible at 10 yards with a Makarov.)

The safety system uses a decocker and is one of the most reliable safety systems in a handgun. Allowing a person to safely carry the gun with a bullet in the barrel, and requiring only one-hand to flick off the safety catch.

The magazine is 8 +1 rounds. Not overly impressive in modern times, but the Makarov is a SURE 9 rounds given it's no jam design. Also, it's magazine is held in place by a European style mag release...which sits at the bottom of the grip. Americans typically don't prefer this type, believing it to be too slow for a rapid mag change. HOWEVER...it does eliminate one very bad problem that I've noticed with other concealed carry firearms. This problem being the accidental release of your magazine when you jostle the American style push buttom mag release while sitting down. It is always embarrassing to step out of your car and hear a mag clatter on the ground as it falls from your now unloaded weapon.

Inexpensive. Makarovs are inexpensive guns. Note I said "inexpensive". Not cheap. Their quality is superb, but their origins and caliber have made them a much overlooked gem. Prices range from $130 to $350 for some models.

Concealable. Not tiny, but concealable. Fits comfortably in the hand of anyone who isn't taller than 6'3"ish.

And finally, threaded barrel replacement allows the possibilty of a silencer attachement.

[Biggles]

What is this?!!! No one recommended a Makarov?!

C'mon.

One of the most reliable handguns in the world. Owners routinely report 0 failures to both fire and eject after 1000's of rounds have been fired through the weapon.

A Soviet designed firearm. (Russians make GOOD GUNS...poor democracies, but good guns). Produced by the Chinese, Soviets, Bulgarians, and the East Germans. Used in every other Steel Shade country from the 1950's to present day.

Solid steel construction (except for the grips, which are plastic with rubber aftermarkets available).

In either .380 or 9x18mm ammo. The 9x18 is a Russian designed caliber. Hovering somewhere in power between a .380 and a 9x19 "regular" 9mm. The surplus ammunition for this gun often incorporates a bi-metal steel jacket around a lead core. (Didn't steel/iron weaken rakoshi?) Arguably improving penetration. Not quite as powerful as the regular 9mm but acceptable when weighed against all the other features of the Makarov.

With a fixed pin barrel design similar to some Walther designs, the Makarov is QUITE capable of taking 100 yard shots and putting them in an area the size of your hand. Making shot placement at closer ranges a snap. (Putting a "hole within a hole" is entirely possible at 10 yards with a Makarov.)

The safety system uses a decocker and is one of the most reliable safety systems in a handgun. Allowing a person to safely carry the gun with a bullet in the barrel, and requiring only one-hand to flick off the safety catch.

The magazine is 8 +1 rounds. Not overly impressive in modern times, but the Makarov is a SURE 9 rounds given it's no jam design. Also, it's magazine is held in place by a European style mag release...which sits at the bottom of the grip. Americans typically don't prefer this type, believing it to be too slow for a rapid mag change. HOWEVER...it does eliminate one very bad problem that I've noticed with other concealed carry firearms. This problem being the accidental release of your magazine when you jostle the American style push buttom mag release while sitting down. It is always embarrassing to step out of your car and hear a mag clatter on the ground as it falls from your now unloaded weapon.

Inexpensive. Makarovs are inexpensive guns. Note I said "inexpensive". Not cheap. Their quality is superb, but their origins and caliber have made them a much overlooked gem. Prices range from $130 to $350 for some models.

Concealable. Not tiny, but concealable. Fits comfortably in the hand of anyone who isn't taller than 6'3"ish.

And finally, threaded barrel replacement allows the possibilty of a silencer attachement.

OK, where do I begin? First of all, when Paul asked for ideas for RJ's backup, I considered the possibility of the PM (Pistolet Makarova) immediately. I own a very nice East German (ex-Stasi "secret police") version of the Mak, known as the "Pistole M". I bought it when they first came on the market for a ridiculously low price that included a spare mag, holster and cleaning tools. I replaced the stupid grips it was imported with with the correct DDR grips and immediately qualified "expert" on it right out of the box. It's so accurate and dependable that I have carried it concealed (with Hornady or CorBon hollowpoints) on many occasions. It's better than my Walther PP (smoother DA trigger) and at least as accurate. In fact, I only practice headshots with it; torso shots are too easy.

Everything you have said about the Mak is correct, and I used mine to teach my son to shoot. I have nothing bad to say about the Mak. That being said, however, the Kel-Tec P11, which I recommended for RJ's backup, can handle 9mm x 19 +P loads (much more powerful than the 9 x 18 MAK round, which is a marginal improvement over the 9 x 17 or .380 ACP load), has mag interchangeability with the S&W double stacks, and thus can be reloaded with 30 round stick mags if necessary, and has been very dependable in my experience. In terms of size efficiency. my P11 is the most bang for the size I've got.

BTW, It's good to find another Mak fan on the board. :D

[Nietzsche Pops]

My Makarov is a commercial model IJ70-18A. It is in the 9x18mm caliber. The adjustable sights that were placed on the non-military models (made in Russia) REALLY have helped me out a lot. I've been able to sight my handgun to the point that I can hit targets at ranges most other people wouldn't try with a rifle. If I wanted some extra money, I could probably scam a lot of people out of some dough by walking into a firing range and betting everyone I could hit a man sized target 5 times out of 5 at 100 yards with a 4.25 inch barrelled pistol. :D A man sized target is too easy even at 100 yards for a Makarov. I can hit the upper torso of a man sized target at that range...let alone the whole target.

I almost suggested a hi-capacity version of the Makarov as a substitute. I'm sure that Jack's gun source, the venerable Abe, would be able to supply him not only with the IJ70-18AH model, but would also be able to acquire a 12 round clip. Thus giving a 12 +1 capable firearm for Jack to carry. 13 rounds packed into a concealable firearm...pretty nifty.

That being said however, I have to grant you that the 9x18 will never quite be as powerful a round as the 9x19 Parabellum/Lugar rounds. Those 9x19s are kicking out a lot faster than the 9x18. I have often wished that the Russians had designed the Makarov with the 9x19 in mind....although I've been told that a blowback design isn't really possible for a 9x19...too powerful. The gas needs time to cool. Otherwise the gun might catastrophically burst when you fired it. So the bigger calibers are all DELAYED blowback designs...including the 9x19. As I'm sure you know. :D But some other folks might not, so I thought I'd mention it.

I have to agree that it is good to find another Mak fan. But what most surprises me isn't your choice of the Makarov (a good pistol design will often become well known) but rather your quoting of Number 6 from the old "The Prisoner" series. I mentioned this under another thread but I'd like to reemphasize it. I do this because I think EVERYONE should see "The Prisoner" at least once. Most people won't benefit from it, but for those who do....it is well worth it.

Another Prisoner quote:
No.6: ``The whole earth as `The Village'?''
No.2: ``Yes, that is my hope. What's yours?''
No.6: ``I'd like to be the first man on the moon!''
--Chimes of Big Ben

[law dawg]

This is just my BS opinion, but any weapon an operator carries is simply a tool in a toolbox. The caliber may be a consideration (in certain environs you might not want a really hot caliber) but really it is the skill of the shooter that is of real import.

Where caliber is very important is in interchange between the primary weapon and the backup. It is always preferable to carry the same round for both if possible (less types of ammo to pocket every day and if the primary gun is inactive the backup (by definiton) is small and generally has fewer rounds so if you run out you want to be able to strip the main weapon of its rounds and utilize them in the backup).

An even better idea is to utilize something like the Glock system where even the compact versions can accept full magazines from the full size pistols. That way the operator only has to carry a few extra mags and the two in the weapon and they are all utilizable and accessable. Speed in a gunfight is of the utmost importance. If you need your weapon you need it right then.

My BS opinion only. Your mileage may vary.

[Biggles]

This is just my BS opinion, but any weapon an operator carries is simply a tool in a toolbox. The caliber may be a consideration (in certain environs you might not want a really hot caliber) but really it is the skill of the shooter that is of real import.

Where caliber is very important is in interchange between the primary weapon and the backup. It is always preferable to carry the same round for both if possible (less types of ammo to pocket every day and if the primary gun is inactive the backup (by definiton) is small and generally has fewer rounds so if you run out you want to be able to strip the main weapon of its rounds and utilize them in the backup).

An even better idea is to utilize something like the Glock system where even the compact versions can accept full magazines from the full size pistols. That way the operator only has to carry a few extra mags and the two in the weapon and they are all utilizable and accessable. Speed in a gunfight is of the utmost importance. If you need your weapon you need it right then.

My BS opinion only. Your mileage may vary.

I agree on all counts. Shot placement is more important than calibre, although if you can carry a 9mm vs. a .380 or a .380 vs. a .32 ACP (of similar size), common sense dictates that you go with the more effective calibre. Having your backup in the same calibre as your primary, and even using the same mags, is optimal.

[pjbraden]

I own a Kahr PM9. 9mm, 6 + 1 capacity, appx 19 oz loaded, has night sights, 5.3" long, .9" wide, 4" tall, polymer and stainless steel (the "bright" stainless steel and black stainless streel - the latter would work much better for "stealth" type sutuations). Easily accurate to 30 feet with practice, recoil is not a problem, works best (less recoil, faster follow up shots) with 115 gr hollowpoints. Frequently carried in a pocket holster or an ankle holster.

Kahr also makes a PM40 - .40 caliber, 5 + 1 capacity, same dimensions as the PM9, also comes with night signts. This one packs a punch. Recoil is more pronounced, but controllable with practice. It should be faster on follow up shots than that baby .45 that Jack carried.

No way anybody with either of these would be undergunned.

Please, retire the .380s!

[Biggles]

Please, retire the .380s!

With the exception of the ultra-concealable deep cover pocket guns like the Seecamp and Kel-Tec .380s, I agree. My Kel-Tec P11 is as concealable as my FEG SMC-380 (PPK clone) and holds 10+1 of 9mm vs. 6+1 of .380.

[law dawg]

As you increase concealability you lessen accessibility and vice versa. The more accessible it is the more visible it is. Pick your poison - slow or hidden. Fast or visible.

Caliber is really less important than ability to use the tool. A .22 in the eye will make you DRT. I personally like a heavier caliber, but that is me. But more important than caliber is that whatever carry method you use you need to practice from that rig. Not plinking targets at the range with the weapon already in your hand. Practice from the draw. Practice FAST, 'cause in a situation you will not have the option of slow. If you need a weapon you need it RIGHT THEN. And try to stay with that same rig all the time. If you always carry and practice from the shoulder and then go to a, say, ankle holster when the feces hits the fan you will automatically go to what you normally carry and try and draw from. Nothing will be there and it will take precious time for your brain to click and remember where your weapon is. Your higher brain functions shut down under adrenal stimulation and you revert to your training. So, practice under stress (do a 30 second sprint and 20 pushups and then draw your weapon and try to fire. Your hands will be shaking and you will not be steady. That is only a taste of what adrenaline will do to you and your shooting ability). If you have the option some day do some scenario-based training with simunitions. That will ratch up the shooting to as close to the real thing as is possible. And it will really demonstrate ones strengths and weaknesses.

My BS opinion only. Your mileage may vary.

[Ken Valentine]

As you increase concealability you lessen accessibility and vice versa. The more accessible it is the more visible it is. Pick your poison - slow or hidden. Fast or visible.

Good advice.

Caliber is really less important than ability to use the tool. A .22 in the eye will make you DRT.

As an elaboration, I say the four most important things are:

1. Determination . . . A tiny grimly determined woman with a .22 is more effective than an irresolute man with a .44 Magnum.

2. Shot placement. That line from the movie THE PATRIOT says it all, "Aim small . . . miss small." Center of mass? Head? How about aim for the heart (which is actually in the center of the chest, extending to the left just a little.) Aim for the upper lip.

3. Power factor. Carry the most powerful gun you feel comfortable with.
Biggles likes to carry 9mm, I prefer 45 ACP, and Law Dawg also likes a heavy caliber. What ever slays your dragon . . . as long as you're comfortable with it. Although I wouldn't dream of anything anything smaller than a 9mm, unless it was some really strange circumstance, and even then it would be in my normal holster position. (I like cross draw myself.)

4. PRACTISE! PRACTISE! PRACTISE!



I personally like a heavier caliber, but that is me. But more important than caliber is that whatever carry method you use you need to practice from that rig. Not plinking targets at the range with the weapon already in your hand. Practice from the draw.

More good advice!

And don't start with your hand on the gun. Start from a surrender position, or a scratching your nose position, or scratching your . . . well . . . anything else you can think of.

Practice FAST, 'cause in a situation you will not have the option of slow. If you need a weapon you need it RIGHT THEN. And try to stay with that same rig all the time.

Here we're going to disagree a bit. When it comes to speed shooting, the best way to start is slowly . . . start practising that is.

Take your gun to the range, and practise your grip . . . slow fire. Keep your eye on the front sight at all times when firing. Especially after you have fired a round and the gun is coming back out of recoil. With an improper grip, your gun may return with the sights off to the left, off to the right, high, low, or some combination. With a proper grip, the gun will drop back with the sights in perfect alignment, ready for the next shot.

With the gun unloaded, start practising your draw. (NEVER look at your gun while drawing -- or returning it to the holster either.) Start slowly. From where ever your hands happen to be, and with your eyes on your target, slowly reach for the gun, and get your perfectly developed grip. Don't actually draw -- just get that grip down perfect . . . every time.
Do this at least two hundred times a night, every night, for at least a month.

Then, from what ever starting position(s), get your grip and slowly draw the gun from the holster. Then put it back into the holster -- all the time watching your target.
Do this at least two hundred times a night, every night, for at least a month. That is . . . after you do fifty get-your-grip drills.

Next, starting from whatever position(s), slowly get your grip, draw slowly, and lift your gun so that your sights are on target -- clicking off the safety and putting your finger on the trigger as your gun is nearing your target. Dry fire one shot (snap caps are a good idea.) Then reverse the process; take your finger off the trigger, click the safety back on (if it will go back on with the hammer down, if not, simulate), and return the gun to your holster -- never taking your eyes off of your target.
Do fifty get-your-grip drills and two hundred of these draw-and-returns every night for at least a month.

The key words to remember here are slowww and smooooth.

One of the biggest mistakes many shooters make is to bring the gun up so they can see the front sight above the rear sight, and then drop the sights into position. This costs time. If you have your grip right, you will be able to sweep the gun up into position and have the sights in alignment and on target without even looking at them. Which is your next drill.

Look at your target, close your eyes, and draw. If you have been practising correctly, you can open your eyes and your sights will be on target. Keeping your same shooting position, look a bit to your left at another target. Close your eyes and draw to it. Do the same to your right, and higher, and lower. Draw to one target, pick a second target, close your eyes, sweep to that target, and open your eyes. Pick a third target, close your eyes and do the same thing.

After a while your shoulder muscles are going to burn and you're going to think your arms will fall off. This is good! This is when your muscle memory is really starting to develop.

After about two months of this, you can start to speed things up a bit. Don't try to go too fast as you can still ruin your draw at this point. Just think; smooooth . . . a little faster . . . and then a little faster . . . but never forget . . . smooooth.

After about six months, draw from different positions. On your knees, getting up from a chair, sitting in a chair, turning to your left, turning to your right, with your back to the target, down on one knee . . . what ever else fancies your strike.

After about a year, you can go to a hundred draws a night, two or three times a week and still keep your edge.




If you always carry and practice from the shoulder and then go to a, say, ankle holster when the feces hits the fan you will automatically go to what you normally carry and try and draw from. Nothing will be there and it will take precious time for your brain to click and remember where your weapon is. Your higher brain functions shut down under adrenal stimulation and you revert to your training. So, practice under stress (do a 30 second sprint and 20 pushups and then draw your weapon and try to fire. Your hands will be shaking and you will not be steady. That is only a taste of what adrenaline will do to you and your shooting ability). If you have the option some day do some scenario-based training with simunitions. That will ratchet up the shooting to as close to the real thing as is possible. And it will really demonstrate ones strengths and weaknesses.

More good advice yet!



My BS opinion only. Your mileage may vary.

I wish you would drop the "BS" part. I find it irritating. YMMV

Ken V.

[jimbow8]

Reminds me of Unforgiven....

Little Bill Daggett: Look son, being a good shot, being quick with a pistol, that don't do no harm, but it don't mean much next to being cool-headed. A man who will keep his head and not get rattled under fire, like as not, he'll kill ya. It ain't so easy to shoot a man anyhow, especially if the son-of-a-bitch is shootin' back at you.

[draws]

That's about as fast as I can draw and fire and still hit anything.



I don't own any weapons, but I think I would enjoy going to a shooting range.

[law dawg]

Ken said:
1. Determination . . . A tiny grimly determined woman with a .22 is more effective than an irresolute man with a .44 Magnum.

2. Shot placement. That line from the movie THE PATRIOT says it all, "Aim small . . . miss small." Center of mass? Head? How about aim for the heart (which is actually in the center of the chest, extending to the left just a little.) Aim for the upper lip.

3. Power factor. Carry the most powerful gun you feel comfortable with.
Biggles likes to carry 9mm, I prefer 45 ACP, and Law Dawg also likes a heavy caliber. What ever slays your dragon . . . as long as you're comfortable with it. Although I wouldn't dream of anything anything smaller than a 9mm, unless it was some really strange circumstance, and even then it would be in my normal holster position. (I like cross draw myself.)

4. PRACTISE! PRACTISE! PRACTISE!

Me:
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes. (I carry a Sig .357 and Ruger SP101 .357 depending on circumstance). I also like .40 cals (especially the Glock series).

Ken:
And don't start with your hand on the gun. Start from a surrender position, or a scratching your nose position, or scratching your . . . well . . . anything else you can think of.

Me:
Agree 100%. I like to start interview stance but that is work related, not necessarily self-defense (SD).

Ken:
Here we're going to disagree a bit. When it comes to speed shooting, the best way to start is slowly . . . start practising that is.

Me:
Agree. I was assuming a baseline competency not just starting. I was also talking about training for a SD situation once baseline is established. Thanks for the clarification. Absolutely correct.

Ken:
With the gun unloaded, start practising your draw. (NEVER look at your gun while drawing -- or returning it to the holster either.) Start slowly. From where ever your hands happen to be, and with your eyes on your target, slowly reach for the gun, and get your perfectly developed grip. Don't actually draw -- just get that grip down perfect . . . every time.
Do this at least two hundred times a night, every night, for at least a month.

Me:
Outstanding advice.

Ken:
Next, starting from whatever position(s), slowly get your grip, draw slowly, and lift your gun so that your sights are on target -- clicking off the safety and putting your finger on the trigger as your gun is nearing your target. Dry fire one shot (snap caps are a good idea.) Then reverse the process; take your finger off the trigger, click the safety back on (if it will go back on with the hammer down, if not, simulate), and return the gun to your holster -- never taking your eyes off of your target.
Do fifty get-your-grip drills and two hundred of these draw-and-returns every night for at least a month.

Me: Agree except for one point. I do not care for safeties. I NEVER use them. Under adrenal stimulation it is too easy to forget. The more actions one must engage also slows down the process (every action needs mental process and also needs physical activity which is slow). Minor quibble only and more of a personal preference.

For SD work one is most likely to encounter less than 7 yards so sight alignment is of lesser import and familiarity is more important. Simply punching out and not squeezing (slamming) the trigger will usually do. By slamming I mean don't slam the trigger back. It must be controlled, especially in single action. Manage recoil. Have a solid grip. Keep a stable platform (I utilize the modern icosoles). Keep firing until the target is down. After the last shot take out the slack for the next shot even if you do not plan on taking it. Assess the situation and only if the weapon is not necessary then back to the holster. The important part is to LOOK around and not put the gun right back into the holster after the last shot. ASSESS. Once you are comfortable and a reasonable decent shot then start ratcheting up the intensity a bit. Shoot after a sprint. Then, to really get the goods, go to simunition if available. There is NOTHING like scenario-based training. It is where the rubber meets the road. Everything else is prep work, in my opinion.

I also hold the same with unarmed work. Start slow, move to sparring and THEN to scenario/adrenal-based training. My good friend Peyton Quinn at RMCAT training is the best I have seen for unarmed and pretty good for armed adrenal training.

YMMV (the rest dropped on advice of counsel...;-))

[law dawg]

Jimbo: I don't own any weapons, but I think I would enjoy going to a shooting range

Me: We disagree politically and philisophically but anytime you want we'll go destroy some targets and make lots of holes. I'd be honored.